Amtrak Wants Out of RRTA !!

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: [i]Originally posted by BaltACD
The documentation is my W-2's for the year 1990 when I was employed in both Technology and Operations during the taxable year and received a W-2 from each company.....While I was in Technology, Social Security was withheld....not Railroad Retirement. While in Operations I was back in Railroad Retirement. The Technology payroll and the Operations payroll were totally separate and because of this, on my taxes I was able to receive a refund amount account of excess SSA/RRTA having been with held during the year.

Thanks for the information. It looks like 36 years of inadequate funding is showing up in human as well as track capital. If you do not have enthusiastic employess in a service business you are dead. The UP found that out when they tried to run Overnight like a railroad with 90% of the focus on keeping costs down and driving some of their drives into the arms of the Teamesters.

Amtrak has been underfunded for so long it may be time to shut it down and start fresh.

[gfjwilmde]

Thank You CCSHEGWEWISCH for that enlightening explaination to the difference of Railroad Retirement to Social Security. I've had to explain to my lady that difference several times over. Plus, when you tell the public, they still don't believe the system is like this. Railroad Retirement is everything to us. It's our pensions, it's 'our' form of social security and plus it's 'our' disability insurances if we are injured and can't work. It is also our unemployment insurance if we are laid off. I'm grateful that I'm vested in the Railroad Retirement system, but I'm deathly afraid what will happen to my future payouts if it is converted over to the regular Social Security system. I have enough quarters to claim social security, but I'd prefer to get railroad retirement, because it pays out more in benefits than social security. Once again, Thank You Very Much CCSHEGEWISH for the truthful information. I hope some of these people in these forums will finally feel our pain and struggle, we railroaders have to endure to be productive members of this US society. Many of us work long hours, in all kinds of weather and all kinds of dangers in the performances of our jobs/duties. We should be truely compensated for these duties and be taken care of when we retire. We have given most of our lives to this industry and deserve better than what we are getting right now, at this moment in time.



GLENN
A R E A L R A I L R O A D E R!!!!!
A R E A L A M T R A K E R!!!!!
AN ONLY T R U E AMERICAN!!!!!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

One thing that people need to remember is that Social Security and Railroad Retirement are not the same thing. Railroad Retirement is the railroaders' pension plan as managed by the Federal Government and predates Social Security. Railroaders are not eligible for Social Security unless they earned enough quarters of coverage through non-railroad employment.

Social Security is not and has NEVER been intended to be a total retirement pension. It is intended to cover for some lost income due to retirement. Your company pension and own savings are intended to be part of the total plan.

[METRO]

Now this is harsh, Amtrak's going to loose a lot of very talented guys over this. I'd bet that the UP and other lines would love to pick up some people with 20+ years under their belt.

Some of the best trainmen I know work for Amtrak and it'd be a shame to see them squeezed out. There was a guy around here a couple weeks ago telling me how much better he'd have it if he went to work for CN.

On the other hand, I wonder how many times people have said that things were "just another nail in Amtrak's casket." The line has been living on the edge since day one, and it's really amazing to see how well it has done it a perpetual state of living death. I forget who it was but some lawmaker made a speach a few years ago about "taking Amtrak off life support." Well I'll tell you, she's been off life support, given cyanide pills and burried alive by many people over the years, and hasn't kicked it yet. Given the circumstances, I'd actually say Amtrak has done pretty well.

~METRO

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

The end of Railroad Retirement is an action being taken by all railroads.

CSX has removed all departments that are not directly involved with train opeations, either operations or financially from Railroad Retirement....departments such as Real Estate and Technology. I presume other Class I's are taking similar actions. Needless to say removing employees from the purview of Railroad Retirement reduces the base from which Railroad Retirement has to operate.

Class I's would love nothing better than to sell themselves into miriad 'Short Lines', thereby abrogating all existing labor agreements and haveing the secondary function of killing Railroad Retirement.

While I am not a forensic accountant, I expect if one 'follows the money' in all the short line spin offs from the various Class I's you will find tha the money comes back to the Class I's that 'spun off' their properties as short lines. The Class I's still get the traffic from the short line, all the while breaking the labor agreement by seemingly legal means.

I would like to see some documentation on your claims.

Management does not get to pick and choose who they pay Tier I and Tier II taxes on. They pay taxes on everbody from the CEO down to the new hires who have spent at least 90 days on the payroll. Of course if the outsource a function that is a different story.

The documentation is my W-2's for the year 1990 when I was employed in both Technology and Operations during the taxable year and received a W-2 from each company.....While I was in Technology, Social Security was withheld....not Railroad Retirement. While in Operations I was back in Railroad Retirement. The Technology payroll and the Operations payroll were totally separate and because of this, on my taxes I was able to receive a refund amount account of excess SSA/RRTA having been with held during the year.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

The end of Railroad Retirement is an action being taken by all railroads.

CSX has removed all departments that are not directly involved with train opeations, either operations or financially from Railroad Retirement....departments such as Real Estate and Technology. I presume other Class I's are taking similar actions. Needless to say removing employees from the purview of Railroad Retirement reduces the base from which Railroad Retirement has to operate.

Class I's would love nothing better than to sell themselves into miriad 'Short Lines', thereby abrogating all existing labor agreements and haveing the secondary function of killing Railroad Retirement.

While I am not a forensic accountant, I expect if one 'follows the money' in all the short line spin offs from the various Class I's you will find tha the money comes back to the Class I's that 'spun off' their properties as short lines. The Class I's still get the traffic from the short line, all the while breaking the labor agreement by seemingly legal means.

I would like to see some documentation on your claims.

Management does not get to pick and choose who they pay Tier I and Tier II taxes on. They pay taxes on everbody from the CEO down to the new hires who have spent at least 90 days on the payroll. Of course if the outsource a function that is a different story.

Also, the vast majority of shortlines pay railroad retirement. Also, many shortline employess belong to labor organizations such as the UTU or BLE. They just have much different work rules than the Class Is. Often there is just one union representing the agreement employees with no barriers between craft lines. If mangement needs you to work as enginer today or a welder tommorrow they can assign you where there is work.

[Anonymous]

For edbenton:

Ed, paying the $75/month health care proposal is not the point. The point here is, Amtrak employees have gone nearly 45% of their 25 year career time without raises. They are now heading into their 6th year without a raise, and, the agreement being offered by Amtrak amounts to about $100 per month raise, BUT, they want $75 of that back towards health care. So, what do you suppose the "bring home" pay is going to be after taxes are taken out?? Probably would be LESS bring home pay than what the 40 hour work week gets you now.

If Amtrak employees were receiving annual increases like other industires give their employees, then, maybe it wouldn't be so hard to contribute to health care. But, contributing isn't going to solve the health care issues in this "money grubbing", and "gouge 'em for what you can" health care we have here in the USA!!

On top of that, Amtrak employees don't feel that receiving average annual increases of about 44¢ per hour for each of the last 22 years is what one would really call raises.

[gfjwilmde]

I've been away for a while, so I can lower my blood pressure, but now some of you have really p!$$6d me off to no end. Amtrak doesn't deserve to be let out of any aggreement from paying into the railroad retirement system. Just because you feel it's ok for that facist president of yours to steal your social security and give it to failing airline companies, doesn't mean he can take from us railroaders and line the pockets of his multi-billion dollar friends. I for one will not let this happen to me, my family, nor any of me close railroad coworkers. Hear me now...THEY WILL HAVE TO TAKE ME OUT ON A STRETCHER OR A BODY BAG if they remotely think they will touch any of my railroad retirement money. How dare any of you who beleive that Amtrak is in sure dire situations because of their obligations to aggreement(craft [union]) employees. They give management employees 3%-4% raises each year, plus bonuses. That crappy cola they give us every January and July doesn't amount to anything(i was being nice with using that word). Some of you fake railroaders or railfans couldn't last a minute in the shop where I work, so nib it quick. In fact if any of you think you can last a day with me or my coworkers, come on down to the Amtrak Wilmington Locomotive Shop in Delaware and try your hand at real mens work. Ask for the 'truck gang'. I'll be waiting!


GLENN
A V E R Y R E A L R A I L R O A D E R!!!!!!!!!!
A T R U E A M T R A K E R!!!!!!!!!!
A H I G H L Y D I S G U S T E D AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BaltACD]

The end of Railroad Retirement is an action being taken by all railroads.

CSX has removed all departments that are not directly involved with train opeations, either operations or financially from Railroad Retirement....departments such as Real Estate and Technology. I presume other Class I's are taking similar actions. Needless to say removing employees from the purview of Railroad Retirement reduces the base from which Railroad Retirement has to operate.

Class I's would love nothing better than to sell themselves into miriad 'Short Lines', thereby abrogating all existing labor agreements and haveing the secondary function of killing Railroad Retirement.

While I am not a forensic accountant, I expect if one 'follows the money' in all the short line spin offs from the various Class I's you will find tha the money comes back to the Class I's that 'spun off' their properties as short lines. The Class I's still get the traffic from the short line, all the while breaking the labor agreement by seemingly legal means.

[Anonymous]

Amtk workers should not have a give up their retirement. It is easy for a non rail worker to say otherwise but one of the main reasons people elect to get into the rr is the pay & benefits. You work for a rr, pay into the system you receive the industry retirement. Its that simple. There is no in between on this. Giving up rr retirement should not be an issue w/Amtrk reform. Cut out retirement while Gunn and his board of directors receive bigger bonuses in future yrs while throwing a few crumbs at the feet of a very dedicated work force? I don't think so. These workers are humn beings, not cattle

[oltmannd]

Amtrak could get out of a lot of their RR retirement obligation by spinning off non operating departments and reorganizing them under social security. This is what CSX did with their IT and intermodal departments.

[edbenton]

The employees are complaing about 75 a week for benfits. My parents pay 250 every 2 week for coverage just for the 2 of them. Now I know how good the RRTA pays since my grandfather recived benefits. Everyone wonders why the RRTA is being hit so hard it was the fact that they now allow 60 yr olds to retire with full benefits. They are showing what the futre of Social Secruity is going to be at least that will not hit until 2038 for it.

[dehusman]

Railroad Retirement pays more than Social Security. Correspondingly railroad workers and railroads pay more retirement taxes into the plan than do "civilians". If Amtrak workers were covered under Social Security, Amtrak would reduce its payroll taxes by millions of dollars. Unfortunately the railroad workers would get less benefits and have a higher age they could retire and get full benefits. This is something that every railroad worker on every railroad, management or union should discourage.

Dave H.

[Junctionfan]

How are the workers supposed to keep up with the cost of living if they are denied retirement funds. You end up with a bunch of retirees on welfare because the government was too darn cheap to provide its workers with financial security unlike most large businesses.

So what the government is doing is spending $10 to save $1. They will spend more on welfare and political spin-doctoring then if they were to just add more money to Amtrak.

[Anonymous]

Dumping Railroad Retirement is NOT the answer to Amtrak's financial problems. Most railroad employees have at least one eye on their ultimate retirement and participation in the Railroad Retirement System. The benefits are far superior to Social Security.

LC

[Wdlgln005]

Did you see any of the Amtrak hearing on Cspan? I hope they can make copies or transcripts available. The hearings were held by Sn Lott Thursday, with repeats Friday & over the weekend.
It appears Gunn asked for Amtrak to substitute Social Security for Railroad Retirement. Then you could see outsourcing of particular items, from food service to ticketing & other things. Then benefits may look like a regular company, with social security, a 401k, and a co-pay health plan.
You have to be careful to hear the whole story. A capital grant program with a 50/50 or 80/20 split is diffferent from operating subsidy. We still need a funding source for the capital grant program.

[Anonymous]

It seems this is just another heading in the general direction our country is going. The unfortunate retired personnel from Bethlehem Steel in Maryland had their retirement benefits and health care taken away completely! As for health care contributions, there's no end in sight at the rate we are all going - just where and when will it end, when companies demand 50% or more from your salary? I guess somehow, someway, we've all got to do our share to ensure the $23 million or more annual salary the insurance company CEO "earns".

[Dutchrailnut]

Losing money is not knowing were it went.
Subsidizing pasenger service is done all over the world and not a loss.
Even India with people on roof and hanging off the sides needs subsidy.
Is it lost money No, Amtrak is losing lesss money than highways and air traffic.
how so ?? they get less subsidy.

[Anonymous]

I understand how you feel Tom, but when you look at the money that Amtrak is losing, I don't think that they have a choice. It is either do that, or go under, and you guys might go under anyways. I hope not because I love Amtrak, but that isn't my choice.

[Big_Boy_4005]

You know Tom, there is an air of hypocrisy in all of this, namely that the president wants to kill Amtrak, but would order you back to work as being vital, if you were to strike. I have always known where his head was, and wonder if it has ever seen the light of day.

You are definately caught between a rock and a hard place, and have my sympathy. It could be worse, as other Tom said. You could have no job at all, like those Northwest mechanics I mentioned. One of my neighbors is one, but I don't know if the cuts hit him. He may have enough seniority to hang on for now. With 4 kids, I hope so.

Sometimes I wonder, what is the world coming to? With Northwest, the execs need to please the stock holders. With Amtrak, I don't know who they are trying to please. The GAO? Obviously, it's not the employees.

[Anonymous]

Well, to work as an Amtrak employee, non-management wise, it's a closed shop, meaning you have to belong to the union representing your craft. Striking is out of the question, it's a long drawn out process and when it finally does come down to a strike, the Pres. of the USA steps in with the usual "you're vital to national security" (this had happened long before the 9-11 terrorist acts) and right back onto the job you go in less than 24 hours. You actually never had a chance to strike when that comes down from the president of the USA.

We're just being held hostage by the National Mediation Board, and, most are right to say "well, go find another job"., and, it's already happening. Moral is the worst then I've ever seen and with the advent of the railroad retirement being in jeopardy, a lot of 20 year plus employees will opt to leave the company.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Keep in mind that the airlines are going to their employees hat in hand. Northwest has gotten consessions from their pilots, but not from their mechanics. Guess who is being phased out. 900 positions in Minnesota, with the work to be outsourced. Cut expenses at all costs (so the execs can keep their monster salaries).

Competetive does not necessarily mean head to head with another company. In this case it means VIABLE. Amtrak has always managed to survive on the edge of viability. With the budget axe always looming, and higher fuel costs, something has to be cut. Time to pick on the employees retirement, it's an easy target.

Are Amtrak employees even allowed to strike, and what would the net effect be if they did? The perfect excuse to dump the whole thing? Maybe that is their ulterior motive.

[Anonymous]

the way of the unions these days, it costs so much to run pay union prices, that most union jobs now are going overseas. By far the jobs that are going overseas are union jobs. For Amtrak, if they are to be competitive, they need to get rid of railroad retirement. If those employees leave, then they can hire younger ones that will make less wages. Either that, or they will go under!
Brad

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by amtrak-tom

In one of the proposed "reforms", Amtrak wants to opt out of the Railroad Retirement System in order to be "more competitive! More competitive with who?? About the only reason why most of the Amtrak employees have remained on was because of railroad retirement. It certainly isn't because of: not receiving a fair wage, sitting 5 years plus without a labor agreement, the 3¢ an hour cost of living raises (yes, not 3% --- 3 CENTS! The last COLA was 12¢), and no retroactive pay once an agreement should be reached.

And why won't the unions settle? Because the so called raises are not really raises! For example, the proposed maintainer raise is about $24 per week, but, the company wants $75 of that per month back for health care costs! So, we have a proposed $96 per month raise (before taxes) minus the $75 health care! Wonder how much bring home there will be after taxes??

The RRTA system would certainly be hurting if about 19,000 railroad employees stopped contributing to the fund.

Sign Me,

Frustrated

Well, I'm sorry to say...If you don't cut the cost you may end up with no job! $75 per month for health care is not that much. I once paid about $120 per pay check! Now I pay about $80 per paycheck!

[spbed]

I would suspect they mean other forms of transit like jets, cars & busses [:D]

Originally posted by amtrak-tom

Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR  Austin TX Sub

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