Two sorta dumb questions about a rare sighting and CNW operations

[techguy57]

Hey everyone!

1. I know that CNW used to run "left handed" and many railroads running on ex-CNW lines still honor that tradition. My question is whether there is any rhyme or reason why CNW chose to run left-handed, and does running that way help/hinder the train crews in any way?

2. My dad and stepmom came up to visit on Easter Sunday from Joliet,IL and passed through Barrington, IL where they got stopped by a southbound train on the EJ&E line around 2pm. Now my dad said repeatedly that one of the engines was a B&O engine, which of course really surprised me. Now, let me also preface this with saying that my dad grew up literally right next to the old B&O line through Brownsburg, IN and crosses an number of rail lines on his way to and from work everyday so although he doesn't follow trains as closely as I do, I know he can identify a number of paint schemes. He also said that many of the cars were CN and WC which leads me to believe that it might have been a CN train. Anyone else care to speculate?

[gabe]

I think the first question is a great one.

If I knew what the unit was for the second question, it would be a great question two. The only reason I say that, is I know of two switchers in Northern Indiana (both are on regional railroads) that still happen to have B&O colors.

Gabe

[techguy57]

Thanks Gabe. I said the same thing to him. He said it was older with a short hoodbut other than that it he didn't know what kind. But he said B&O not Chessie which I also thought was interesting and he said the B&O markings were still visible which made me think it was a patch job. The fact that it was on the "J" line in the afternoon surprised me too. I told him if he ever saw anything like that to call me. If I hadn't been cooking Easter dinner I'd have grabbed him, my camera and we'd would've chased it down!

Mike

[chad thomas]

I don't know about the CNW. The Santa Fe is left hand running through Cajon pass because of whitch side the steeper (downhill) track is on. They switch to right hand running with a flyover at Frost (Victorville).

[Anonymous]

About the CNW, I remember hearing that it was because of the location of stations within the current City of Chicago limits. The stations were on the north side of the tracks and when the second track was installed in 1855 the railroad didn't want passengers waiting outside for their trains in the morning. The inbound trains were run on the north track so passengers could remain inside the station until just before the train arrived, creating the left-hand running that remains today. That might not be exactly right but it the most logical thing I've heard.
As for the unit on th EJ&E in Barrington, I know there is still one unit left running around on CSX still in partial B&O paint, but I would doubt it made it to Barrington. The EJ&E is leasing three Ohio Central units right now though, so mabye your father saw one of them.

[techguy57]

Thanks cnw8835. Interesting observation. Especially since the CNW would choose to keep it that way after they had grown such a distance away from Chicago. Food for thought.

Mike

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw8835

About the CNW, I remember hearing that it was because of the location of stations within the current City of Chicago limits. The stations were on the north side of the tracks and when the second track was installed in 1855 the railroad didn't want passengers waiting outside for their trains in the morning. The inbound trains were run on the north track so passengers could remain inside the station until just before the train arrived, creating the left-hand running that remains today. That might not be exactly right but it the most logical thing I've heard.
As for the unit on th EJ&E in Barrington, I know there is still one unit left running around on CSX still in partial B&O paint, but I would doubt it made it to Barrington. The EJ&E is leasing three Ohio Central units right now though, so mabye your father saw one of them.

This was the story I heard when I worked for the C&NW from 1969-1982.

[UP_North]

That is also the most popular version I have heard, and I work for the UP in Chicago.

[Jordan6]

I Believe the reason that the CNW ran left handed is because the people that started the CNW were from Europe. And everybody knows Europeon transportation is lefthanded, so there ya have it.

[jimrice4449]

I'll go with Jordan6's explanation since it would cover the lines outside the Chicago sbn district (like all the way to Omaha on the Galena Dvn). The specific story I heard was that the line was originally built with British capital. He who pays the piper calls the tune. This also accounts for C&NW RAILWAY as opposed to C&NW Rairoad.

[Anonymous]

I believe cnw8835 is correct. This is the explantion given in railroad history books and it sounds reasonable. Whatever the correct answer is for the origin, it is easy to explain why it continued over the entire system to the present. Once the system was built for left hand operation, it would require a major expenditure for signals and switches to change the system to right hand operation.

[Anonymous]

The explanation in Roger Grant's "The Northwestern" book agrees with cnw8835. I've heard the English owners story over the years, but at the time the double track was installed from Wells street terminal to Junction(later Turner Junction), John Turner, a native of New York was running the company. This part of the line was shared with the CB&Q at the time and they wanted to avoid the expense of relocating all the stations.

The line was originally built under the leadership of William Ogden(also born in New York and Chicago's first mayor)) with capital raised primarily from Chicago business leaders known as the Chicago Group. The book says they avoided the use of eastern or foreign capital as they didn't want to relinquish control and held large blocks of real estate along the proposed line. Later they sold common stock to business interests in towns along the proposed route of the line that stood to benefit.

In addition to Grant's book the PBS station here runs a program on the History of Chicago(usually during pledge periods) that talks about Ogden & the Chicago Group building the original line with no mention of foreign ownership.

[eolafan]

I have heard two expanations for the "left hand running" on the C&NW:
1. The engineers who designed the line were fron England and all of their lines are "left hand" lines, so they simply repeated that here.
2. (This one I find hard to believe). The lumber for the stations along the suburban line was dumped off of the left side of the freight cars for the first few and so they simply built the stations where the building materials layed rather than move it. Sounds kind of strange to me.

[Anonymous]

The whole notion of the "English Factor" is rather hard to believe. Here is a quote off of the C&NW Historical Society Website.

"The left-handed operation of the C&NW set it apart from other railroads in the US. It is fairly certain that the stations along the predecessor G&CU were on the “wrong” side, and when a second track was laid into Chicago, left-handed running allowed inbound passengers to wait in the warm depot. Otherwise, the depots would have had to be rebuilt or moved. The notion that British capital forced this left-hand running does not work. In those days no investor in Europe, let alone New York, would risk money on anything out on the uncivilized prairie. The investors were almost all local farmers and businessmen. ……They did very well, it might be noted."

Also..
The Galena & Chicago Union Railway (C&NWs predecessor) was chartered by the State of Illinois on January 10, 1836.
Construction of the G&CU was authorized on April 5, 1848 at the first shareholders meeting in Chicago.

If you want to look at the history page this is the address...
http://www.cnwhs.org/ch_cnw.htm

The dates are from the "Slices in Time" article from the Winter 1998 150th C&NW anniversary issue of North Western Lines.

[daveklepper]

One old-time rumer spiked. Most informative. Thanks

[Anonymous]

Give UP a couple more years and left hand running will be gone from the former CNW. Was out that way saturday they have CTC from Mo. Valley to few miles east of Denison and all the signals seem to be in all the way to Grand Junction so when thats up and running it will be CTC from Mo. Valley to Marshalltown. The kate Shelly bridge is to be replaced soon too. Its not going be removed it will still be in service as a siding and a maintance road and the new bridge will be on the north side of old KSB and good for 70MPH.

[daveklepper]

I don't regret the demise of left-hand running on the old C&NW if the operation is smoothed by CTC and efficient double-track operation. What often happens is that the directional control changes day by day or even hour by hour according to traffic and best operating plan, with both tracks set up for bidirectional running.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan


2. (This one I find hard to believe). The lumber for the stations along the suburban line was dumped off of the left side of the freight cars for the first few and so they simply built the stations where the building materials layed rather than move it. Sounds kind of strange to me.

Interesting, but some of the towns along these lines pre-date the railroads and were served by plank roads. Old Chicago was a major trans-shipment center for grain going east via the Great Lakes & Erie Canal. When the railroads were built, the stations were probably located closest to the main part of town and on the C&NW west line the oldest part of many towns is north of the tracks.

On the CB&Q line, the old Lisle Station was originally on the north side of the tracks. It was moved to the south side when commuter service was expanded past Downers Grove. When the current modern station was built, the old one was moved again to it's current location in a park north of the tracks.

The C&NW North line probably had some of it's original stations located east of the line, as the well-off folks lived along the lakefront, while the poorer towns were west of the tracks.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by techguy57

1. I know that CNW used to run "left handed" and many railroads running on ex-CNW lines still honor that tradition. My question is whether there is any rhyme or reason why CNW chose to run left-handed, and does running that way help/hinder the train crews in any way?

The explanation forwarded by cnw8835 sounds most logical to me. In winter, G&CU station platforms would tend to be icier unless a depot was built north of the single track, keeping the shadow away from the platform. Whatever feeble sunlight there was would help melt the ice, keeping the platform safe for the commuters. When the west line was double tracked, the depots were kept on the north side so the second set of rails had to be built to the south of the first.

But then here's a problem. Today's Kenosha S/ub (ex-Chicago & Milwaukee RR) and Harvard S/ub (ex-Chicago, St. Paul & Fond du Lac RR) were given the same treatment by C&NW in the late 1890s. The sun would be behind the depots. So, maybe these lines with less revenue had the west line's operating practices forced onto them so as to eliminate having locomotives controlled from the "right" side (my humble guess)? Or, maybe the lines were originally right-handed running and with the advent of ATS equipment, they were switched over?

[techguy57]

I don't know about the Kenosha sub but some of the stations, though not all of them, on the Harvard Sub, now more commonly known to METRA riders as the UP-NW, are on the south side of the trackage. Some examples I can think of would include Woodstock, Crystal Lake (the downtown station), Arlington Heights and I believe Des Plaines. I'm not sure if the change was forced, but it would seem logical that they were converted from right-handed running to left-handed running. The force issue seems to have a better case for it as it would help keep things easier for CNW workers, instead of training them for specific running on specific tracks.

cnw2up- I didn't realize that the harvard sub had been anything other than CNWand now UP. Do you know where I might find info on the old Chicago, St. Paul and Fond du Lac? Really interesting stuff!

Mike

[UP_North]

Woodstock, Crystal Lake, Cary, Arlington Park, are the only stations on the Harvard sub that are on the south side of the tracks

[zardoz]

Kenosha Sub:
Stations on west side of tracks: Waukegan (coach yard is on east side of tracks).
Stations on west side of tracks with access to both mains (tracks either above or below station level: Kenosha and Indian Hill (above), Winnetka and Hubbard Woods (below).

[zardoz]

Exerpts from the CNW Historical Society CNW history site http://www.cnwhs.org/ch_cnw.htm:

For many years the Chicago & North Western was the probably the largest and most profitable of the Midwestern railroads. By 1910 it had reached an apogee, which continued more or less through the 1920’s. It called itself the “Pioneer Railroad” because a predecessor, the Galena & Chicago Union Railroad, was the first railroad running out of Chicago (and all of Illinois), beginning in 1848. The C&NW also pioneered many “firsts” in railroad history.

The left-handed operation of the C&NW set it apart from other railroads in the US. It is fairly certain that the stations along the predecessor G&CU were on the “wrong” side, and when a second track was laid into Chicago, left-handed running allowed inbound passengers to wait in the warm depot. Otherwise, the depots would have had to be rebuilt or moved. The notion that British capital forced this left-hand running does not work. In those days no investor in Europe, let alone New York, would risk money on anything out on the uncivilized prairie. The investors were almost all local farmers and businessmen.

1855-- The G&CU lays a second track out of Chicago and it starts left-handed operation. Experts agree that the left-hand operation was an easy way to avoid moving all the depots to the other side of the tracks. Other explanations make little sense.

1866-- The Chicago & Milwaukee is acquired by lease, giving the C&NW a route from Chicago to Milwaukee.

1906-- The first trains run to Lander, Wyoming, which marked the end of the westward expansion of the C&NW. Plans to get to the West Coast never materialized.

1911-- The “Adams Cutoff” gives trains a shortcut from Milwaukee to the Twin Cities. It was the last major line constructed in Wisconsin.

1928-- Automatic Train Control is installed on selected locomotives and it was used on the main line from Chicago to Council Bluffs. But this was accomplished in segments, over a period of time.

1950-- CTC was installed on the main line from West Chicago to Nelson. It would later be expanded.

1952-- Automatic Train Stop is instituted on the line from Chicago to Wyeville. As with ATC on the West Line, it was a safety measure to protect high-speed trains. It proved to be untimely because high-speed service was reduced considerably by 1963.

1955-- The passenger agreement with the Union Pacific/Southern Pacific was ended by the C&NW. This was a radical departure from decades of cooperation.

1956-- Steam operation officially ended on the C&NW, thought some hidden pockets of steam existed on the fringes.

1960-- Push-pull bilevel suburban service is instituted using older diesels that were adapted for head-end electrical power.

1989-- Japonica Partners LP and Blackstone Capital Partners LP attempt a hostile takeover of the C&NW. The Union Pacific had to purchase millions of dollars in C&NW stock and the C&NW had to assume very heavy debt to fend off the takeover. While that saved the C&NW from a dubious fate, it left the Coal Line with the burden of pulling out of the debt and left the Union Pacific with what amounted to ultimate control over the C&NW.

1995-- (April 24th) The 24th was the last day of operation of the C&NW. It took place on a weekday and few people were on hand to watch the demise of a proud railroad, which once was the stellar system in the central Midwest.

For a very good detailed map of the CNW in 1909: http://www.cnwhs.org/images/map1909.jpg

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jordan6

I Believe the reason that the CNW ran left handed is because the people that started the CNW were from Europe. And everybody knows Europeon transportation is lefthanded, so there ya have it.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!! The fact of the matter at hand is why the CNW ran left-handed...it just grew that way. The CNW started out as a single track railroad. In its early stages,the construction crews pushed westward from Chicago hauling up supplies from behind as the rails went down ahead. At planned intervals,stations were erected on the right-hand side to accommodate passengers,and to facilitate the loading and unloading of freight.So long as the CNW continued to run on single track,both inbound and outbound (with an occasional siding for passing) no problem presented itself. By 1855 ,increased traffic warranted double tracking,and construction was started on the 3 divisions of the CNW.The second track was built on the right-of-way,away from the existing stations.In the operation of a right-handed road,this would make the new line the inbound track. After considering the fact that most commuters arrive before train time,and therefore in need of a shelter,while on their return trip commuters head for home immediately,the road chose to have inbound trains use the left-hand track next to the station. By 1882,most of the stations in the Chicago area were built and the switches and signal systems designed for this left-hand operation. Late in the 19th century,CNW officials had to consider not only the reversing of switches and the changing of their signal systems,but the changing of ALL suburban stations as well.It was agreed that since the advantages of a right-handed system were about equalized by the advantages of a left-handed operation,the expense of the change-over was not thought justified.
This is the reason for the CNW running left handed operations.
Andrew
CNWHS

[techguy57]

Okay, guys. Seems we cleared up the why left-handed question. Thanks for the input.

New question: Was it easire for the CNW based on their operating procedures then to rebuild switches and the like of right of way they acquired such as the Chicago, St Paul and Fond du Lac rather than just having points to change the routing such as having the trains turnaround at wyes? Just trying to make sure I follow entirely!

Mike

[ValorStorm]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UPMODELER1

The kate Shelly bridge is to be replaced soon too. Its not going be removed it will still be in service as a siding and a maintance road and the new bridge will be on the north side of old KSB and good for 70MPH.

This sounds apocryphal. Can you provide a link that corroborates it?