Train crew question about meeting another train at a passing siding

[csxengineer98]

kenno.... it would still be minimal at best....... if any crew goes on the law in the first place..thier was some major delay somewhere down the line...either at the originating yard...line of road.. **** poor dispatching...the list can go on and on... but its still just a pimple on the butt of the railroad... the big costs are where trains derail and have mains blocked and have cars sideways and stacked 3 high...a train delayed for only an hour or so costs next to nothing in the long run...add up eveything you can think of...and 1 good derailment will blow that figur away ......
csx engineer

[kenneo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

and if it's a busy railroad there may be delays to other trains as well.

no more delay then if the train went into emergancy on its own becouse of a broken airhose...or it gets a hot box.... on a perfict day the trains run fine with no problems..... but thier is always a chance of mechnical brakedown... and it can build up delays just as fast as an engineer putting his train in emergancy.....so the arguement is a dead point... delays happen... regardless of the reason....
csx engineer

The discussion was not about what caused a delay. The question was what does a delay (from any cause) cost and how could it be figured. As you stated, a delay is a delay is a delay and delays happen. Even if you are the only train on the entire railroad, no run seems to be without at least one delay. Time is money and each cost item has a time calculation built into it somewhere (even the cost of fuel), and the question asked was how that calculation worked into our subject - train delay.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

csx

Not questioning you or your running just the operational point of the statement. but that is fine our rules are simular but also in most cases our signals are set up in a way that we have vision . ive only dumped them 2 times at interlockings ( csx interlockings) as i had a clear then it dropped about 4 cars from the signal..... and i didnt stay on board it either. this signal is know to screw up and have headlight meets at the interlocking .

wabash..the territory out my way is alot of twists and truns... come around bends into interlockings as things like that... so line of sight as far as seeing a signal from a distace is an issue in some places...
do you have to call signals where your at?
csx engineer

[wabash1]

csx

Not questioning you or your running just the operational point of the statement. but that is fine our rules are simular but also in most cases our signals are set up in a way that we have vision . ive only dumped them 2 times at interlockings ( csx interlockings) as i had a clear then it dropped about 4 cars from the signal..... and i didnt stay on board it either. this signal is know to screw up and have headlight meets at the interlocking .

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

and if it's a busy railroad there may be delays to other trains as well.

no more delay then if the train went into emergancy on its own becouse of a broken airhose...or it gets a hot box.... on a perfict day the trains run fine with no problems..... but thier is always a chance of mechnical brakedown... and it can build up delays just as fast as an engineer putting his train in emergancy.....so the arguement is a dead point... delays happen... regardless of the reason....
csx engineer

[Hugh Jampton]

and if it's a busy railroad there may be delays to other trains as well.

[kenneo]

The costs of any delay for any reason that does not involve damage or destruction of the equipment is the same (formula) but varies due to train size and consist and other affected trains.

To provide an example -- csxengineer has to make a UDE (undesired emergency). He has had to stop short of entering a siding where he is to make a meet and has at least one train behind him that will be delayed. The costs are as follows (abridged version) 1) actual crew costs directly attributal to the delay, 2) actual hourly perdiem for each foreign line or X line car in each train directly attributal to the delay, 3) actual ownership costs of each home road car on each train directly attributal to any replacement car that would in theory be needed due to the absence of the delayed car for a shippers need, 4) additional fuel burnt, any additional foreign unit engine hours created, any replacement units needed for home road units, 5) the replacement value of any delayed cargo not where it is supposed to be when it is needed at that place.

Some of the above costs can be directly determined. Others can only be estimated. If the engines and cars of the theoreticly needed extra cars and units still made it to their destinations "in time", there would be no extra costs involved for them. The point is this -- there are costs, they are not particularly obvious, depending on each individual situation, they may be not so much or really big.

And then, if csxengineer puts his train on the ground, big $$ ouch.

[ValleyX]

You forgot to mention time lost while the conductor inspects the train after it has gone into emergency, I am sure there are costs, especially if other trains are delayed and the Hours of Service becomes an issue. As for the rest of it, unless the train ends up in more than one piece, there's very seldom any other damage, as CSXengineer said.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

How much does it cost the railroad if an trains goes into emergency? (loss of time, strain on rolling stock, fuel costs for pumping up the air and accelerating the train after the emergency-stop etc.9

the costs are minimal ..unless you derail...and then they can get very expensive very fast.....
csx engineer

[martin.knoepfel]

How much does it cost the railroad if an trains goes into emergency? (loss of time, strain on rolling stock, fuel costs for pumping up the air and accelerating the train after the emergency-stop etc.9

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

csx you dont haft to big hole a train when coming to a absolute. if the signal before it was approach then you come to another approach then it requires a drastic move but if the previous signal is green and the absolute is green then drops a normal stop is fine even if you get by the signal it is fine . a dropped signal dont mean a emergency applacation.

with that said the only time i would dump my train is if it is at a interlocking and i cant see either direction then i am dumping it and then thinking of bailing out. if i dont hear a crash in 5 min then i will reboard the train

on csx rules.... if the signal drops...we are to bring the train to a stop useing good train handeling....IF IT IS SEEN THE TRACK AHEAD IS CLEAR.....(that is the importaint part of that rule).....if you cant see the track ahead..or thier is some kind of obstruction...stop the train with an emgergancy application of the air brakes.... so...the few times i have had to dump it..have been at night... where i cant see the track ahead becouse it went around a curver.... so..yes emergancy is warrneted....
csx engineer

[kenneo]

One charastic about searchlight signals is that you will see the different aspects as they sort themselfs out. The default aspect is red, and it is in the center of the aspect plate (some are a wheel, but most are a plate that must be held off of the red aspect by a relay operated electric motor.) so in the event of a power or signal failure, the signal can go to red "automatically".

So, on a three color searchlight signal, you would have yellow on one side, red in the middle, and green on the other side. When the aspect plate cycles from yellow to green, it must pass by the red. When older signals cycle in this manner, the red will appear for a very brief moment. The same thing will happen between green and yellow. With these older signals, when the train splits the signals, you will see the green go to red quickly as the relay drops and gravity brings the aspect plate to the center position and then sometimes the other colors will "flash" as the plate bounces left and right and finally settles down on the center position.

In newer signals, the aspect plate is designed so that red is on one side, yellow in the middle and green on the other side, so that you won't see the red aspect unless the signal is going to stay at red. The aspect plate in these signals almost never bounces.

Searchlight signals have maintenance and inspection rules mandated by the FRA that "normal" single aspect per bulb signals do not have. Their mechanics cost more to make and maintain. Hence, the move to three color heads.

[Anonymous]

ya at a diamond its time for the big hole . otherwise it's very common at least in my neck of the woods for there to be long standing problems. One situation is at sidney ohio there are double tracks on the indianapolis like. When a westbound hits the handthrow crossovers at spafford on 2 track at 166 all the eastbound signals from cp 189 east drop red for about 25-30 seconds. I've had conductors freak about it but i'm always like DONT BIG HOLE IT !! One other way to look at it is i'd rather make it through the diamond instead of hit or be hit in the lead unit by some yahoo blowing a signal

[wabash1]

csx you dont haft to big hole a train when coming to a absolute. if the signal before it was approach then you come to another approach then it requires a drastic move but if the previous signal is green and the absolute is green then drops a normal stop is fine even if you get by the signal it is fine . a dropped signal dont mean a emergency applacation.

with that said the only time i would dump my train is if it is at a interlocking and i cant see either direction then i am dumping it and then thinking of bailing out. if i dont hear a crash in 5 min then i will reboard the train

[csxengineer98]

a signal droping and coming back more faverable is known as "pumping" its not normanl..and needs to be reported by the train crews ASAP...so the dispatcher can get a maintainer out to look at the problem....alot of times at controll points...the dispatcher knows if the signal is pumping becouse he can see it flashing on his board too...
i have had this happen to me over the years..and its is scary as crap to be coming up on to an abslout signal on a clear..only to have it drop in your face with only a few cars to stop.... it makes your butt pucker..and your hands start sweeting...and lot of F bombs have a nasty tendancy to start to be droped by myself and the conductor.......lol...and then 1 big hole coming up!! lol
csx engineer

[mudchicken]

Send a letter or e-mail to the local TM....carbon copy the RFE and the local rules examiners.

If you have not already. (Most rules guys are like bulldogs on this stuff)....Use these guys to your advantage instead of hiding from them. (i.e. - put 'em to work and keep 'em out of the weeds!....the same thing goes for poorly aimed signal heads)

[shrek623]

QUOTE: Originally posted by richardy

QUOTE: Originally posted by shrek623

QUOTE: Originally posted by vandenbm

Last evening I was out catching some action through Morris. There was a unit grain train meeting a coal empty in town. Morris has a pretty long siding for meets, probably 12,000 feet or so. The train keeping the main had an approach signal as the train taking the siding hadn't cleared the swtich yet.

Right as the grain train (who was keeping the main) came upon the intermediate signal in town between switches, the approach dropped to red and the train went into emergency, obviously, to stop. Turns out the intermediate signal always drops to red for a second or two then back to approach as the train entering the siding takes the switch. Is this normal?

Did this train just come upon the signal at the exact wrong time to have the light change right in front of them? I thought it was kinda weird.

Note: The signal is question is not at either of the switches, the siding at Morris is so long that there is a signal between the switches in town about 6,000 feet from either switch.

I know I have had it where it will be yellow, you will see a quick flash of red, then we would get a clear. A freaky split second but for me it happened so fast no one had had time to react yet. Even if it did drop, I would have let the engineer stop the train consistent with good train handling before I dumped it.

Shrek

Shrek: Are the signals where you see the "quick flash of red" three color light or searchlights signals?

Richard

Richard,

I remember distinctly that this was a "searchlight" signal(single lens"old" type). I don't remeber where it was exactly and it was very fast(very brief flash). The engineer did not even see it(one glance at the control stand would have been enough to miss it). It was just something where we were sitting idle waiting for traffic, we got the approach, but started slowly so we could get the "highball". I just happened to be staring at the signal when it flashed real quick yellow-red-green(green held thru the signal). Does not happen all the time, just that one time I can remember.

Shrek

[underworld]

Sounds like an electrical problem.

underworld

[BaltACD]

No signal SHOULD momentarily change it's aspect.

If it occurs there is either a fault in the design of the signal system or a fault in the individual installation.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by shrek623

QUOTE: Originally posted by vandenbm

Last evening I was out catching some action through Morris. There was a unit grain train meeting a coal empty in town. Morris has a pretty long siding for meets, probably 12,000 feet or so. The train keeping the main had an approach signal as the train taking the siding hadn't cleared the swtich yet.

Right as the grain train (who was keeping the main) came upon the intermediate signal in town between switches, the approach dropped to red and the train went into emergency, obviously, to stop. Turns out the intermediate signal always drops to red for a second or two then back to approach as the train entering the siding takes the switch. Is this normal?

Did this train just come upon the signal at the exact wrong time to have the light change right in front of them? I thought it was kinda weird.

Note: The signal is question is not at either of the switches, the siding at Morris is so long that there is a signal between the switches in town about 6,000 feet from either switch.

I know I have had it where it will be yellow, you will see a quick flash of red, then we would get a clear. A freaky split second but for me it happened so fast no one had had time to react yet. Even if it did drop, I would have let the engineer stop the train consistent with good train handling before I dumped it.

Shrek

Shrek: Are the signals where you see the "quick flash of red" three color light or searchlights signals?

Richard

[Anonymous]

I have had similar experiences to shrek. The approach will turn red and then go to green in another second. I'm sure a signal maintainer has a good explanation of this phenomena, but it does give me jitters.

[shrek623]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vandenbm

Last evening I was out catching some action through Morris. There was a unit grain train meeting a coal empty in town. Morris has a pretty long siding for meets, probably 12,000 feet or so. The train keeping the main had an approach signal as the train taking the siding hadn't cleared the swtich yet.

Right as the grain train (who was keeping the main) came upon the intermediate signal in town between switches, the approach dropped to red and the train went into emergency, obviously, to stop. Turns out the intermediate signal always drops to red for a second or two then back to approach as the train entering the siding takes the switch. Is this normal?

Did this train just come upon the signal at the exact wrong time to have the light change right in front of them? I thought it was kinda weird.

Note: The signal is question is not at either of the switches, the siding at Morris is so long that there is a signal between the switches in town about 6,000 feet from either switch.

I know I have had it where it will be yellow, you will see a quick flash of red, then we would get a clear. A freaky split second but for me it happened so fast no one had had time to react yet. Even if it did drop, I would have let the engineer stop the train consistent with good train handling before I dumped it.

Shrek

[Anonymous]

Last evening I was out catching some action through Morris. There was a unit grain train meeting a coal empty in town. Morris has a pretty long siding for meets, probably 12,000 feet or so. The train keeping the main had an approach signal as the train taking the siding hadn't cleared the swtich yet.

Right as the grain train (who was keeping the main) came upon the intermediate signal in town between switches, the approach dropped to red and the train went into emergency, obviously, to stop. Turns out the intermediate signal always drops to red for a second or two then back to approach as the train entering the siding takes the switch. Is this normal?

Did this train just come upon the signal at the exact wrong time to have the light change right in front of them? I thought it was kinda weird.

Note: The signal is question is not at either of the switches, the siding at Morris is so long that there is a signal between the switches in town about 6,000 feet from either switch.