Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas Alot has to do with how efficient you drive. Perhaps the person doing the driving was a bit of a lead foot. This really affects city milage.
QUOTE: Originally posted by talbanese Don't forget about traffic, stop and go lights. Gasoline used. Regions plays into it as well. I noticed here in the Midwest people tend to drive a little slower then my old home in Delaware.
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed They intimated that they felt the EPA really does not test each model car & just guesses at the rating they will give. In all cases the actual driving mileage acheived was lower then what the makers says we should be receiving. So buyer beware. [:(]
QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas Well I don't know. Your probably right.
QUOTE: Originally posted by eastside QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed They intimated that they felt the EPA really does not test each model car & just guesses at the rating they will give. In all cases the actual driving mileage acheived was lower then what the makers says we should be receiving. So buyer beware. [:(] The EPA calculates mpg by running cars on rollers in a carefully controlled environment. This would be like driving on a perfectly straight, flat, and smooth road without the AC on. These are ideal conditions.
QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas I still say the way you drive has a lot to do with it. I drive american cars with big v-8 engines, as do most of my friends. I can almost always get much better gas milage when I drive versus when they drive in the same cars. It's anoying when some of them drive because it seems to me like they are trying to waste gas. Sometimes when we take road trips I insist on driving if I'm paying for the gas. City driving is the worst. It's not just the stop and go, but also knowing how to avoid having to stop and go. Where I am right now really sucks for that. None of the traffic lights are timed. And when you slow down early to avoid having to stop, some jerk always cuts in front of you. Fortunatly most of my driving these days is in a company truck and they buy the gas. I still try not to waste it.
QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas I don't really care how they come up with the city numbers myself. As long as all the manufactures use the same "guage" to measure by. That's the important part so you can compare between different models. You got to figure they are going to try to use the best case scenario so people think they are better than they really are.
QUOTE: Originally posted by spbed Yes I fully agree. For sure the EPA method is not anywhere near fair to the consumer. [8D] Originally posted by chad thomas I don't really care how they come up with the city numbers myself. As long as all the manufactures use the same "guage" to measure by. That's the important part so you can compare between different models. You got to figure they are going to try to use the best case scenario so people think they are better than they really are. I think the EPA is using the right methods to estimate fuel consumption. It is true that performing the tests indoorsand under ideal conditions means their estimates are better than the average driver will achieve. However, if they did not use the current methods and actually had drivers perform the tests out on roads and streets it be would be impossible to make comparisions across different makes and models. Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Sunday, March 13, 2005 5:50 PM The EPA 'city' and 'highway' mileage ratings are run using a very very carefully controlled test protocol; in the one case, involving a large amount of low speed driving, and a number of starts and stops, in the other a large amount of faster driving (but not as fast as most folks drive). The test conditions -- air temperature, humidity, rolling resistance, etc., are specified quite exactly, and are the same for all vehicles tested, as is the rest of the test protocol. Thus the test figures are useful to compare various vehicles to each other. No one. Repeat NO ONE has ever claimed that the figures achieved represent what a real driver will get in real conditions. In fact, if one were to actually read the complete EPA mileage rating, one would find that that is exactly what it says. Unfortunately, it would appear that the average consumer is illiterate. (but so why am I bothering to write this?) Jamie Reply Paul Milenkovic Member sinceJuly 2004 2,741 posts Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, March 13, 2005 6:48 PM The EPA gas mileage test was and is primarily a smog test. The city cycle is based on driving on Los Angeles "surface streets", and the highway test is based on driving on the Los Angeles freeways. As to running with the air conditioning off, I was under the impression that if a car had AC, half the test was run with it on, half with if off, but I need to check on this. The "city test" is running on good roads without a lot of traffic congestion -- the EPA city test is not the conditions of a traffic jam in midtown Manhattan. The "highway test" is typical of urban freeway with moderate amounts of traffic -- the average speed I believe is around 50 MPH and the peak maybe about 60 -- it is not 70 MPH plus out on the open road. If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks? Reply Paul Milenkovic Member sinceJuly 2004 2,741 posts Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Sunday, March 13, 2005 7:08 PM Oops, hit Submit instead of Preview. The other points about the test is that they don't take cold weather or head or cross winds into account. They also use a standardized fuel that may be a bit richer in BTUs than the oxygenated fuels that people in big cities are required to use. I also heard there is some gamesmanship in that there steps in the "inertia weight" settings of the rollers (kind of like high-school wrestlers dieting down into the next lower weight class), and there is some fudge factor to account of aerodynamic drag. Anyway, the EPA numbers are not the "real" EPA numbers. The window sticker has 10 percent taken off the city number and 22 percent taken off the top of the highway number to placate consumers who complain they can't get the EPA numbers. The "real" EPA numbers are still used for conformance to the CAFE standard -- it was felt that they should keep the same rules instead of changing them mid stream. There is another "fudge factor" for manual shift cars. The folks from the car companies were lugging the engine on their gear shifts to get high EPA numbers, and I believe the EPA now mandates more realistic "shift points" reflecting how people who are not automotive engineers drive, and that knocked down manual shift EPA numbers, but the auto companies didn't complain because manual shift is a small part of total sales. But if a car has an upshift light, they can shift when the upshift light says so and get back the high manual transmission gas mileage rating. I test drove one or two cars with an upshift light, and I find it really distracting and annoying because I know when to shift, thank you, and don't need this distracting light blinking at me. I have a Toyota Camry, 1997, 4-cyl, auto, EPA city 23 highway 30. I cheat because I drive this car only during the summer and drive an older car in the road salt of winter. Over the course of a year I averaged 25 MPG city, 35 MPG highway. The real EPA numbers from the Web site are 25/38 for this car (don't know why a 22 percent reduction of 38 is 30 -- maybe there was an error in the listings). So not only do I beat the sticker EPA city, I get the "real" EPA city, and I beat the sticker EPA highway (not hard to do if you drive legal speeds), but reaching the "real" EPA highway has always been hard. I have heard anecdotes that there can be a lot of mileage variability in cars owing to variation in engine friction -- how loose or tight the motor was put together -- anyone have any idea on this? I have a feeling that some cars need to be driven ever so conservatively to get EPA numbers while other cars you can drive more energetically and still do OK. I have heard that the hybrid cars are the worst offenders that no one can get the EPA numbers in them. As to this test of a random sample of cars, how about running one car and a random sample of drivers? If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks? Reply oltmannd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: Atlanta 11,971 posts Posted by oltmannd on Sunday, March 13, 2005 8:06 PM If you want real world gas mileage numbers, check Consumer Reports. They produce the most meticulous real world gas mileage numbers I know of. The EPA numbers are good "apples to apples" numbers. That is, if you're comparing a car rated 20/25 with on rated 17/24, you can be sure the former will get better mileage than the latter. Much better than nothing. They're even much better now than they were when the EPA first started doing it. But, "your mileage may vary". Gee, where did that phase come from? BTW, my truck was rated 11/16. I keep meticulous gas mileage records. I get 11 in suburban driving (almost no highway) and 15-17 on the higway (at 70-75 mph). -Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/) Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Sunday, March 13, 2005 8:20 PM Bought a 2005 Dodge Magnum...V8 5.7 Hemi. Car weighs 4300 lbs. EPA sticker was 27 mpg highway. As I have driven it more and more, the mileage has exceded what the EPA said they wanted...last trip Houston to San Antonio, full tank of gas, five people and all the crap you drag around at Christmas....car got 32 mpg on the way home. New, out of the box, best it would do was 22mpg....as the engine broke in, it got better and better. I would suggest that 1000 miles, weather on real roads or a dyno isnt enough to properly test the mileage after break in. And the car meets all the EPA requirements for California. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply jchnhtfd Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: US 1,537 posts Posted by jchnhtfd on Monday, March 14, 2005 7:58 AM Paul's commentary is excellent! To add a bit to Ed's and Don's experiences and comments (and Paul's!) I too keep pretty decent gas mileage records (ever since I owned a '55 VW -- no gas gauge on that one!) on several rather disparate cars -- my 'commuter' car, a Honda Civic Hybrid; my wife's '97 Saturn, my own wonderful '94 Chevy K2500 and, believe it or not, a 1970 Chevy C10 pickup. The biggest single variable on the Honda is air temperature -- and it can make a 10% difference from summer to winter (45 mpg -- very close to the EPA city -- summer, down to 40 mpg winter). But so can driving style (and it's automatic): my wife gets about 5% less mileage than I do. With the K2500, you can see the weight and drag factors. Empty, it's not too bad: 12 city/commuting; 15-17 freeway (New York State Thruway in upstate New York). Loaded, but no trailer; 9 and 12. Not loaded, but towing a loaded horse trailer, about the same (9/12). The C10 shows maintenance best (no computers on that baby!): if I get the timing and carb just right, on new plugs, it gets around 18 on the highway (it has the 250 cu.in six). 12,000 miles on a set of plugs/points/etc. and I'm lucky to get 15... Then there's tire pressure... and head winds... As Paul says, use the ratings for apples to apples comparisons, and then drive easy... Jamie Reply spbed Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Austin TX 4,941 posts Posted by spbed on Monday, March 14, 2005 9:14 AM Then maybe they should placed the Consumer Reports evulation on the sticker instead of the EPA. [:D] QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd If you want real world gas mileage numbers, check Consumer Reports. They produce the most meticulous real world gas mileage numbers I know of. The EPA numbers are good "apples to apples" numbers. That is, if you're comparing a car rated 20/25 with on rated 17/24, you can be sure the former will get better mileage than the latter. Much better than nothing. They're even much better now than they were when the EPA first started doing it. But, "your mileage may vary". Gee, where did that phase come from? BTW, my truck was rated 11/16. I keep meticulous gas mileage records. I get 11 in suburban driving (almost no highway) and 15-17 on the higway (at 70-75 mph). Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub Reply Leon Silverman Member sinceJuly 2004 785 posts Posted by Leon Silverman on Monday, March 14, 2005 10:08 AM EPA mileage should have the same warnings as weight loss products: "Individual results will vary." Reply vsmith Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Smoggy L.A. 10,743 posts Posted by vsmith on Monday, March 14, 2005 10:21 AM My Nissan Frontier gets 20 mpg highway fairly level grade no heavy headwinds, better if I use the cruise control, city it gets between 15 and 17 but my milage gets worse corespondingly with the number of idiots around me. [:O][banghead][censored] Have fun with your trains Reply modorney Member sinceJanuary 2004 26 posts Posted by modorney on Monday, March 14, 2005 12:28 PM Like many say, EPA ratings are good for comparing, not for actual mileage. One trick to improve mileage is to put bigger tires on the back (or on the powered wheels). Usually there is enough clearance for an inch or two bigger tire on the back, but, sometimes the front is a tighter fit. Of course, your speedometer, and odometer will be off, an accurate check can only be done using the mileposts on the freeway. Or, if you take the same commute run every day, get the mileage with a "known accurate car", and just count the trips. Reply chad thomas Member sinceJanuary 2005 From: Ely, Nv. 6,312 posts Posted by chad thomas on Monday, March 14, 2005 2:38 PM modorney, Increasing you tire size will not always improve your mileage. Your engine might turn less rpms, but you need more fuel per each revolution to give you the same output power at the ground. What determines if you get better mileage with bigger tires is if you move the engine speed closer to its efficiency peek. With bigger tires, thats not always the case. Reply edblysard Member sinceMarch 2002 9,265 posts Posted by edblysard on Monday, March 14, 2005 3:20 PM I think you will find we have reached the leading edge on car tech... Starting in the next two years, almost every car will be much more efficent. The Magnum I own uses the DOD(displacment on demand) system, with no throttle change, it runs on 4 cylinders, instead of 8. The entire car, from tranny shift points to engine revs is controled by computer. No throttle cable, the computer measures how far you have the gas pedal depresses, and onpen the throttle plate based on your driving history, which it also remembers. This thing even measures how many degrees you have the steering wheel turned off of dead center, to help the traction control work better. GM is introducing the same concept, DOD, on their 2006 mid size cars. I give them five to ten years, and we will have locked down cars that require zero maintainance on the owners part, just gas and go. I can see disposable cars, good for 150 to 200 thousand miles, in the not so distant future. I dont think the hydrogen concept with catch on as well as we might want, it takes fuel to seperate hydrogen, so you still pollute and use fuel, and I havent see any "hydrogen mines" anywhere.... But hybrids that recharge battries will get more popular, as will cars using CNG, compressed natural gas, the city of Houston buys them exclusivly for all city service cars, except police and fire, and Metro uses a lot of CNG buses. Ed 23 17 46 11 Reply Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by chad thomas I don't really care how they come up with the city numbers myself. As long as all the manufactures use the same "guage" to measure by. That's the important part so you can compare between different models. You got to figure they are going to try to use the best case scenario so people think they are better than they really are.
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
23 17 46 11
QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd If you want real world gas mileage numbers, check Consumer Reports. They produce the most meticulous real world gas mileage numbers I know of. The EPA numbers are good "apples to apples" numbers. That is, if you're comparing a car rated 20/25 with on rated 17/24, you can be sure the former will get better mileage than the latter. Much better than nothing. They're even much better now than they were when the EPA first started doing it. But, "your mileage may vary". Gee, where did that phase come from? BTW, my truck was rated 11/16. I keep meticulous gas mileage records. I get 11 in suburban driving (almost no highway) and 15-17 on the higway (at 70-75 mph).
Have fun with your trains
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