Fire coming out of diesels

[Anonymous]

[8D]Why do I see fire coming out of diesels locos

[Dutchrailnut]

When loading up a diesel to quik the turbo is not up to speed yet.
so to much oil floods the system, when the turbo finaly catches up the flame shoots out of the stack..
newer diesels have less of a tendency to get turbo lag due to computer controls checking the engine vs turbo.

[Anonymous]

Alcos would do this when the throttle was notched up too quickly, casing excess oil and fuel to get into the exhaust.
[:D]

[rrock]

Other than "fire" out of exhaust stack, sparks, flames, etc. can spew forth from dirty or failing dynamic brake grids (obviously if the loco is so equipped) under some circumstances.

[coborn35]

Man, the Alcos did it nice!

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SILVERCHAMPION

[8D]Why do I see fire coming out of diesels locos

so we crewman dont have to carry charrcoal and lighter fuid in our already heavey overstuffed with rulebooks grips.....so when we stop..we can have a cookout...
i bring the hotdogs...the conductor bings a 6er..lol
just kidding..its what someone said already about turbo lag or something like that...
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

I recently bought the Trains mag video Big Power. There is some film on it of a UP Coal train on the joint line and this big GE looks as if it flames out about six times. Would that be just Turbo lag or does it have a problem. In Britain i cannot recall ever seeing a Deisel shooting out flame but i've seen plenty of black smoke come out of them.

[Overmod]

There have been several good threads on this, with comments in detail from people who know exactly what's going on. I don't have the patience to work through the advanced-search to find 'em, but it would pay to do so. Please, somebody, find and list them...

The usual result of turbo lag is smoke (think "Alco 244" for the poster-child version), which is the result of too much fuel injected into the engine for the available mass of combustion air. But this usually doesn't turn to flame without an ignition source of some kind -- a hot spot in the exhaust, a bad exhaust valve, etc.

Randy and some others mentioned that locomotives will flame when carbon deposits form in the engine during prolonged idling, and the engine is then cranked up hard. I noticed that the old NJT (ex-EL) U34CHs would throw a good 3-4' of laminar flame for a couple of seconds on hard acceleration, but this isn't the dramatic yellow death cloud that shows up in some of the pictures.

One major source of the fires is the turbocharger itself, which has a lube-oil line to its center bearing. If the seals wear, or the casting warps, etc., the lube oil can pass into the exhaust turbine, where the temperature is quite sufficient to ignite it. As mentioned elsewhere too, FM opposed-piston engines could have quite a problem with lube oil pooling above the upper pistons and leaking down into the combustion chambers; revving these up after standing for a while could give you a nifty fire (good stories about this have been told!)

All this is distinct from crankcase fires/explosions, of particular interest on EMD 2-stroke engines...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

Man, the Alcos did it nice!

Yes, they did!![:D]

[spbed]

Great thank you for that explanation. [8D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

When loading up a diesel to quik the turbo is not up to speed yet.
so to much oil floods the system, when the turbo finaly catches up the flame shoots out of the stack..
newer diesels have less of a tendency to get turbo lag due to computer controls checking the engine vs turbo.

[spbed]

I have a tape of the UPRR gas diesels & one of them went ka-boom at start up.

[Anonymous]

This was typical on GE's I never saw this on an EMD. With new throttle computer control adjustments even the GE's are rare at least in the west on the UP.

[oltmannd]

Turbo lag alone won't dump enough fuel to cause fire out the stack. It usually takes a mechanical malfunction like a blown-off injetor tip or souping from too much idling to create the conditions for fire.

[johncolley]

How about seeing a small tonge of flame from each stack at night...just normal exhaust temp that is just more visible at night, eh? same with eighteen wheelers.

[Anonymous]

Normally aspirated locomotives also experienced "stack fires" upon occasion also and it wasn't all that uncommon to have problems with this on EMD
SW-9 or SW-1200s. Back in the days of Penn Central when I was on the extra
hoghead board at Lancaster, PA in the mid-1970s, we had three SW-9s assigned to us for the yard jobs. Thier numbers were 9042, 9043 and 9044.
The 9042 was the favorite of the shifting crews because of it's "mighty might"
status. This engine could pull. Plus it had a set of Nathan Air Chimes off an old E-7 and they were good for scaring kids who trespassed on the railroad. The 9044 was good for getting out on the main-line and thus the crews who worked the industrial shifting out of the yard proper usually used this engine. Of course this left the 9043.

Nobody liked this engine because of it's potential to have the main generator
"flash over" and trip the ground relay alot when working full throttle and also for the fact it had a less than desirable heater in the winter . So it sat back on the enginehouse lead, idling away..often times not used at all between trips to Enola Diesel Shop for MI.The 9043 liked her oil and with worn rings and whatnot, the oil accumulated in the exhaust manifold along with a lot of carbon and other crap.

I was called for an extra yard job one evening for C Trick and after signing up I discovered the only available engine was the 9043. Lancaster Yard is on a slightly eastward grade, so the standard procedure in shifting was to grab a draft of cars, pull them East and flat shift in the other direction. I had ahold of about 25 loads and when I pulled the throttle out, the smoke rolled out of the twin stacks to the extent I wasn't sure or not if I had a diesel or a steam engine!

After getting the train up to about a half-a-mile a year, it didn't take long until the exhaust manifold ignited, spewing fire and chunks of carbon out of it, promptly
setting the weeds on fire on both sides of the railroad. It was early April and with the ground dry and a wind going, it didn't take long for a sizable fire to develop. It took four fire departments almost an hour to get the fire out It was a long night, but we never saw the 9043 after that except in the dead line at Enola. LOl...I should say goodbye old friend, but I think a Neil Young song said it best..."Piece Of Crap", exactly what that engine was.

Captain Jack Neiss, retired engineer, PRR/PC/Conrail

[Anonymous]

When a GE unit looses a turbo it will usually seize and there fore the engine will not get enough air and blow black smoke and a flame out of the stack about 10 to 15 feet out of the stack.

[spbed]

The one I have of a UPRR gas turbine look like there was a small explosion after the fire blew out the stack then a large cloud of black smoke followed. They did not say what happen though

[oltmannd]

A couple of ex-PRR guys I worked for at Conrail told me their nickname for the FM switchers assigned Chicago was "blowtorches" for their tendency to have fire out the stack (similar circumstances to Capt Jack's 9043). The FMs were even less likely to get the repairs they needed because of having to remove the top crank to get at the pistons rings and liners.

[Jack_S]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dutchrailnut

When loading up a diesel to quik the turbo is not up to speed yet.
so to much oil floods the system, when the turbo finaly catches up the flame shoots out of the stack..
newer diesels have less of a tendency to get turbo lag due to computer controls checking the engine vs turbo.

This is exactly analogous to what often happens to turbo-charged race cars on overrun when braking into a turn. Rotary powered Mazdas are particularly noted for this, sometimes shooting a 4 foot flame out the exhaust pipe. Rather thrilling on a gasoline-powered car.

[Anonymous]

over here in the uk it has happend with br class 37 the pictures were in the railway magazne about three years ago

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johncolley

How about seeing a small tonge of flame from each stack at night...just normal exhaust temp that is just more visible at night, eh? same with eighteen wheelers.

Hmm. Occasionally a high powered rig will fire the stacks. Normal exhaust temperatures should be about 800 degrees. I have not looked at a Pyrometer in a long time but I remember in the old Mack R models you didnt allow the exhaust to exceed 1100 degrees during mountian climbing.

Turbos in desiels for 18 wheelers are much smaller and faster reacting than the locomotives. I have also seen turbos in cars but they generally are tiny affairs that are not permitted to "Misbehave" by the onboard computer. I prefer superchargers as I have one of those on a V-6 at home.

[Anonymous]

Hopefully you didn't see this on a SD70 or an GE C44 .

Sometimes you see this because of poor injector maintenace which causes the wrong amount of fuel to be injected. It would probably be more apparent on four cycle engines than two cycle engines. Older engines built before Electronic fuel injection didn't have a means to control the mixture very well so if the locomotive was operating under load then suddenly went to idle you will get excess fuel in the exhaust . Since the exhaust is hot you get a fire. At high altitudes the GE four cycles in the U series were especially bad. They injected more fuel than there was air to burn it so they blew the unburned fuel out into the exhaust manifold. The fuel and lube oil would run out around the joints in the exhaust manifold and get all over the engine and the inside of the hood. When this got really bad a stack fire would sometimes lead to a visit by the nearest fire department.

[CSXrules4eva]

Humm fire comming out of a diesel engine's exhaust stack. I get asked this question all to many times. There were some good points as to why this could happen but there were some points that were missed that I'm going to point out.

Usually, the fire you would see comming out of a diesel engine's exhaust is followed by a could of black smoke. This is what I like to call abnormal smoke. This means that the diesel prime mover could have a problem. The main cause of this "black smoke/ fire" is too much fuel. A rich air-fuel mixture allows carbon (black ash) to blow out of the exhaust system. This condition may be due to the following : fuel injection pump, injection timing, air cleaners, injectors, fuel, or the engine itself. When I say the "engine itself " I mean that over time carbon build up can occur around the valve both intake and exhaust. Carbon can build up on the valve seat as well as the valve. It could also build up on the piston head as well this will amount to excessive black smoke and unbalenced compression.

[trainfan1221]

Overmod,
Thanks a lot! I wanted to be the one to bring up the U34CH"s!

[adrianspeeder]

Tell ya what, "dieselenginegirl" aka Sarah, knows her stuff...

One other reason you get smoke, is people like me that "turn up the fuel" to get that little bit more horsepower to the wheels...

Adrianspeeder

PS: "Real engines don't have sparkplugs!"

[rolland]

That is just the diesel leprechaum saying it wants to be a big steam locomotive when it grows up!

[GMS-AU]

Howdy All

One other point that might be relevant here is the relatively short length of exhaust pipe for the engine size. After exiting the cylinder then through the turbo its only a short distance to the outlet in the hood. Cars exhaust travels at least two metres or 6' before it opens and trucks, especially conventional/bonneted trucks, the exhaust is also quite long. Therefor if there is the same occurrence in a car or truck it will be consumed by other gases and go through a muffler and or a catalytic converter in the case of a car before it reaches the atmosphere. You may notice drag cars ( or trucks ) doing the flame thing but the manifold pretty well comes straight out of the engine and the engines are highly tuned and running rich. Mack truck engines were or are good smokers for similar reasons and that is why the Mack V8 truck engines has been dropped from production as it had light years to go before it had a hope of meeting emission standards. As in Adrians case you can turn up the pump and diesels will smoke but all that smoke is unburnt fuel and you are paying for it to be pumped into the atmosphere. A good running diesel will not smoke even under load and a good driver will also be able to lessen the amount of smoke produced by a diesel. This will be harder in a diesel loco as the engine is run to suit the needs of the alternator and trains are often underpowered so every bit of power is needed to keep the train going.

G M Simpson

[CSXrules4eva]

QUOTE: Originally posted by adrianspeeder

Tell ya what, "dieselenginegirl" aka Sarah, knows her stuff...

One other reason you get smoke, is people like me that "turn up the fuel" to get that little bit more horsepower to the wheels...

Adrianspeeder

PS: "Real engines don't have sparkplugs!"

Yes your right about that one!! Real engines don't use spark plugs!!!! And they don't sound like rice burners either!!

Thanks for the compliment :) I've lived around people that eat sleep and breath diesel, thats how the knowledge rubbed off on me. I also work at a diesel shop so thats also another source of information for me.

[jextra]

What are the Nathan Air Chimes that Captain Jack mentioned in the stack fires thread?

[Overmod]

jextra, he's talking about the air horns. Shop staff took the chime horn off an E7 scheduled to be scrapped.

My data indicate that 9042 made it to Conrail, but was traded to EMD; be interesting to know what happened to her.