QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper But poles say most Americans say lolng distanced trains should be subsidized.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
QUOTE: Originally posted by mehrlich Now, I can't say whether or not that those two intermodals were the same trains, but what if they were? The train was going where I wanted to go, but I couldn't ride on it. Dave, that's why I don't understand the old or infirm argument. If you live in rural America, no one cares if you take the train or not. It probably won't stop in your town, and even if it did, it might not stop in the town you're going to. So you'd end up having to offload and rent a car or take a bus anyway.
QUOTE: Originally posted by mehrlich ...And I'll bet each and every one of us has a car. mike
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper But everybody HAS to use bathrooms sometimes. Are you saying the GM, the Highway - Oil lobby were correct in forcing a civilization on America that forces people to use cars? I say force because of the whole National City Lines business and GM buying New York Railways in 1926 with the intention of a bus conversion as soon as they could develop a decent transit bus, took about eight years. Socioligist have told me the Watts Riots would never had occured if the Red Car Long Beach - LA line had continued to run, and now it has been reincarnated as the Blue Light Rail Line. Tast and cheap transportation to places of employment for the less skilled. I' still concerned about elderly and infirm people have decent access all (at least nearly all) of the USA.
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Based on the Mineta-Bush Philosophy, shouldn't free parking anywhere be illegal? I walk to my neighborhood supermarket and buy things. The supermarket owns and pays taxes on a huge parking lot occupied by most customers, and the taxes and upkeep of the parking lot are paid by the supermarket and reflected in the prices of what I buy. Is this fair for me? I don't use the parking lot!
QUOTE: Originally posted by DSchmitt QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Fine. All that is good. But a Democratic Society takes care of minorities too. And the car-free non-flyer American Citizen deserves access to the entire country. That has been my point on the Amtrak Funding basis. Regardless of the figures put forth by Mineta. Long distance auto travel is also subsidized and so should Amtrak ..but railroads don't serve the entire country, so how does the gov't provide access to the whole country? We have been through this before the automobile subidizes the other modes of transportation, it is not subsidized. The government provides access to the whole country by building roads on which auto, buses, and trucks operate. No other method can provide anywhere near as good and cost effective service to the majority of the people.
QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Fine. All that is good. But a Democratic Society takes care of minorities too. And the car-free non-flyer American Citizen deserves access to the entire country. That has been my point on the Amtrak Funding basis. Regardless of the figures put forth by Mineta. Long distance auto travel is also subsidized and so should Amtrak ..but railroads don't serve the entire country, so how does the gov't provide access to the whole country?
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Fine. All that is good. But a Democratic Society takes care of minorities too. And the car-free non-flyer American Citizen deserves access to the entire country. That has been my point on the Amtrak Funding basis. Regardless of the figures put forth by Mineta. Long distance auto travel is also subsidized and so should Amtrak
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper I still say in will be more cost effective in the long run to keep Amtrak even in its present mediocre funding and operating condition than killing it and starting something new. Also, killing and waiting for something new to start up is going to drastically reduce the quality of life for many people, yes a miniscule perecentage of the USA's population, but still a lot of people. So shutting it down now both hurts people and results in greater funds needed in the long run. As for the subsidy argument, I still say that people who don't own cars do subsidize those that do, and no argument has been presented addressing that fact. The arguments against me assume that everyone owns or uses cars, and that simply is not true.
Living nearby to MP 186 of the UPRR Austin TX Sub
QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER Don't know, the locals here just defeated a tax increase to pay for badly needed road improvements. Town government defeated a tax to pay its share for the metro to run through it and out to Dulles Airport. If we had to vote taxes to pay for the airport now, I think it would be a cow pasture. The anti tax crowd is pretty ferocious here.
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe The anti-tax crowd is ferocious everywhere. In a way, I think this is a bad thing. It seems like this ties the government's hands for projects that would save us all a dime if we all paid a penny. In the same breath, it has some virtue, because it keeps politicians grounded. I shuder to think of the day when any time a politician wants to implement a new program, he says, oh we can do that, we will just raise taxes. This aside and accepting your premise that no one likes taxes, I think city leadership recognize that an airport is absolutely essential to business development. Air is how business gets done. A city cannot attract a company like Boeing if its execs have to track to the city by mule. I don't think there are too many city leaders who see Amtrak as having the same business-attracting/keeping value. Thus, they don't care as much. Gabe
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe .... Bush's claim with Amtrak is that if people had to pay for it with local money—that they perceive as their own—instead of with federal money—which they perceive as belonging to someone else—no one would support it. .... Gabe Wonder how much Air Traffic Control the locals would buy. Enjoy Paul I suspect quite a bit. Most cities, which is about as small of a public voting entity that you can get, directly subsidize airports. Currently, Indianapolis is setting up an initiative to spend its own money to considerably expand its airport. Gabe
QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe .... Bush's claim with Amtrak is that if people had to pay for it with local money—that they perceive as their own—instead of with federal money—which they perceive as belonging to someone else—no one would support it. .... Gabe Wonder how much Air Traffic Control the locals would buy. Enjoy Paul
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe .... Bush's claim with Amtrak is that if people had to pay for it with local money—that they perceive as their own—instead of with federal money—which they perceive as belonging to someone else—no one would support it. .... Gabe
QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Gabe, I respect your criticism. I guest the best way to tackle the Bush Mineta line is to point out that their view of who and how many and why the riders of long distance trains isn't accurate. Mineta himself has not ridden a train like the Empire Builder or the CZ or the SW Chief or Sunset and spoken with the passengers. If Amtrak shuts down and thus long distance passenger service shuts down, there are going to be many people whose lives will be affected downward, some drastically. Yes Amtrak does serve the entire country, if not directly then via connectin buses. Mineta and Bush attack Amtrak because it is heavily subsidized. Others as well as I have shown there are lots of subsidies. The points I've made are that possibly Amtrak is a lot more important than Bush or Mineta or some readers think. that if it goes down a future more ideal system will be lots more expensive, and that there are parallels in other areas for this type of subsidization. Dave, I think your points are fair. My opinion is, I don't mind my tax dollars going toward subsidies from which I will never see a direct or indirect benefit. It happens all of the time; I don’t expect my government to serve me and only me. I am sure I receive some benefits that others do not; so it is more than fair. What I do mind, is when my tax dollars are being spent and it doesn't appear that they are being maximized. The public perception of Amtrak—as well as my own—is that we are not getting a lot of bang for our buck. I wouldn't mind spending 3x the money on Amtrak if there would be a corresponding benefit. Amtrak—in my view—is a problem because no one is willing to suffer the political consequences to kill it or raise taxes to fix it. I think either raising taxes to fix Amtrak or killing Amtrak would be much better than what we have now. So, I kind of admire Bush’s plan. He is at least moving it in a direction and—unlike past Presidents—he is willing to suffer consequences of moving it in one direction or the other. Raising taxes and saving Amtrak might be a better direction Bush’s chosen resolution, but I think killing Amtrak is better than keeping it in its current state. Just my opinion; what do you think? Gabe
QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper Gabe, I respect your criticism. I guest the best way to tackle the Bush Mineta line is to point out that their view of who and how many and why the riders of long distance trains isn't accurate. Mineta himself has not ridden a train like the Empire Builder or the CZ or the SW Chief or Sunset and spoken with the passengers. If Amtrak shuts down and thus long distance passenger service shuts down, there are going to be many people whose lives will be affected downward, some drastically. Yes Amtrak does serve the entire country, if not directly then via connectin buses. Mineta and Bush attack Amtrak because it is heavily subsidized. Others as well as I have shown there are lots of subsidies. The points I've made are that possibly Amtrak is a lot more important than Bush or Mineta or some readers think. that if it goes down a future more ideal system will be lots more expensive, and that there are parallels in other areas for this type of subsidization.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.