School Bus: stopping is pointless

[coborn35]

Why do school buses stop on the tracks, openn their doors and look?
Because, if there was a train coming and they were stopped, wouldnt they be dead anyway? Wouldnt it be safer to just go on the tracks after a glance down them?

[mudchicken]

They are not supposed to stop ON the tracks but back at the clearpoint/ white line. Report the school bus or hazmat trucker doing this on the tracks pronto to the bus/trucking operator - somebody needs a license revoked. Stopping in the "stupid-zone" is a bozo-no-NO! Bus is supposed to be checking in advance of fouling the railroad, opening the door to listen and get a clearer look..

Dangerous & STUPID! if true.

[dldance]

When I was in the 1st through 8th grades, the school bus I rode had to cross the tracks at a really awkward crossing. It was a double track (main line and an industrial siding) part way up a short steep hill. The view of the main line was often obscured by the cars on the industrial siding. The bus driver told my dad that he would stop at the bottom of the hill and check in both directions, then he would slowly climb the hill in first gear, with the door open all the way so that he could stop quickly if a train was approaching. I believe, he even contacted the railroad for a schedule, but that did not cover the industrial switching. The bus driver told my dad that he was scared every time he made that crossing.

dd

[louisnash]

There is a school bus in Kenton Co. KY that goes by our shop and every day must cross the tracks 6 times in the morning and 6 times in the afternoon. All within 20-30 minutes.

They cross the CSX Shortline once, comes into Boone Co. and crosses NS 1st District CNO&TP at our shop, goes down the road and crosses NS again to go back into Kenton Co. Then they have to turn around and come back due to one of the roads being dead end.

I'd be worried to death each time if I had to do this. And they do exactly what they are supposed to do when they get there. One day I watched a driver stop and wait for an oncoming train even before the crossing lights activated. Now, that's a driver.
Brian (KY)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

Why do school buses stop on the tracks, openn their doors and look?
Because, if there was a train coming and they were stopped, wouldnt they be dead anyway? Wouldnt it be safer to just go on the tracks after a glance down them?

Regulations require it.

[Puckdropper]

Man school buses used to stop ON the tracks which is the dumbest thing I can think of. Stopping BEFORE the tracks makes a lot more sense. The ones I've seen stop BEFORE the tracks and not ON them

If you must stop, stop before the tracks, not on them. If you can see, it's probably safer to cross the tracks at 25 mph than it is at 5. If your engine cuts out, you go farther...

[tree68]

Seems like I heard someplace years ago that opening the door is/was a token opportunity for the passengers to debark and walk across the tracks, if they so chose.

I suppose it would depend on line of sight. I'd rather have a bus stop on the tracks (or crawl across) than do a perfunctory stop at the stopline and drive blindly in front of a train they couldn't see...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Puckdropper

Man school buses used to stop ON the tracks which is the dumbest thing I can think of. Stopping BEFORE the tracks makes a lot more sense. The ones I've seen stop BEFORE the tracks and not ON them

If you must stop, stop before the tracks, not on them. If you can see, it's probably safer to cross the tracks at 25 mph than it is at 5. If your engine cuts out, you go farther...

Regarding the engine "stall" scenario in a 18 wheeler, you would place the transmission into the lowest gear and activate the starter motor. The other option depends on if the train is oncoming. And that is to flee towards the oncoming train so you wont be "blown up" downrange by your own destroyed vehicle.

If you do the job properly you will not stall.. one of the rules is to cross the tracks in a gear that permits you to transit the crossing in one move. Never never never remove the power from the transmission.

Regulations require passenger and hazmat vehicles to execute a stop at the white line that denotes the crossing, turn on the 4 way flashers, open the wondows and door and listen for the train. As you listen look both ways and back to the driver's side of the track. When you decide to cross ensure that there are no signals or obstructions that will interfere with your attempt.

If you observe a bus driver stopping on the tracks note the bus number and contact the school system to get this to thier attention. There is no excuse for slacking off at a crossing because things are hard to see.

[AntonioFP45]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this law was enacted on a Federal level, nationwide during the early 1970s.

In fact I remember seeing a children's cartoon skit showing the process of how a bill is proposed by citizens and lawmakers and then passed by congress. The bill that was being shown in the cartoon was that All School Buses Must Stop At Railroad Crossings. I saw that around 1973.

[spbed]

Well they are NOT supposed to stop on the tracks. They are supposed to stop some feet before the tracks & then stop. look & listen to insure that they cross the tracks safely.[:o)]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

Why do school buses stop on the tracks, openn their doors and look?
Because, if there was a train coming and they were stopped, wouldnt they be dead anyway? Wouldnt it be safer to just go on the tracks after a glance down them?

[gabe]

I agree with everyone noting that the bus stops before the tracks and not on them.

I, apparetnly with another who has responded to this post, wonder if this is more safe than not stopping at all. Given the stop, the bus seems a lot more likely to stall, etc. But, on the other side of the issue, the law makes sure that bus drivers concentrate on every crossing and do not dismiss them lightly.

The open door is so the bus driver will be more likely to hear the train's horn.

Gabe

[JoeKoh]

gabe
we were always told to be quiet too at rr crossings or the bus didnt move.any bus not properly stopping im calling the school
stay safe
joe

[jchnhtfd]

HighIron notes: 'If you do the job properly you will not stall.. one of the rules is to cross the tracks in a gear that permits you to transit the crossing in one move. Never never never remove the power from the transmission.'

So right. There are really very few ways that a modern vehicle can find itself without power without warning; one of the few is to miss a shift at a critical moment. The concern about stalling on the crossing is, I think, much over-rated. Most busses these days have automatic transmissions anyway.
The objective of the exercise is to stop, check and ensure that the crossing is not occupied and not going to be occupied by a train while you are on it, that you can clear the crossing on the far side, and then -- and only then -- proceed. This is the law; oddly, it is also common sense.
If you are hauling either hazardous materials or people, you should, ideally, be always taking the safe option, and not assuming that all the crossing gadgets work or that there is never a train on that track.
As for stopping on the track, oh help! One can only assume that the driver(s) in question heard or read part of the law, but never ever stopped to think about 'why'.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

HighIron notes: 'If you do the job properly you will not stall.. one of the rules is to cross the tracks in a gear that permits you to transit the crossing in one move. Never never never remove the power from the transmission.'

So right. There are really very few ways that a modern vehicle can find itself without power without warning; one of the few is to miss a shift at a critical moment. The concern about stalling on the crossing is, I think, much over-rated. Most busses these days have automatic transmissions anyway.
The objective of the exercise is to stop, check and ensure that the crossing is not occupied and not going to be occupied by a train while you are on it, that you can clear the crossing on the far side, and then -- and only then -- proceed. This is the law; oddly, it is also common sense.
If you are hauling either hazardous materials or people, you should, ideally, be always taking the safe option, and not assuming that all the crossing gadgets work or that there is never a train on that track.
As for stopping on the track, oh help! One can only assume that the driver(s) in question heard or read part of the law, but never ever stopped to think about 'why'.

My only hesitation in fully agreeing with you is the part of the quote that premises the statement with "if you do your job properly."

I don't know what your busing experiences were, but my school didn't exactly get its bus drivers from MIT.

Also, when learning to drive a stick, haven't you ever accidentally killed your vehicle after getting it going a few feet? I know that many buses are automatics now, but they all aren't.

Gabe

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

QUOTE: Originally posted by Puckdropper

Man school buses used to stop ON the tracks which is the dumbest thing I can think of. Stopping BEFORE the tracks makes a lot more sense. The ones I've seen stop BEFORE the tracks and not ON them

If you must stop, stop before the tracks, not on them. If you can see, it's probably safer to cross the tracks at 25 mph than it is at 5. If your engine cuts out, you go farther...

Regarding the engine "stall" scenario in a 18 wheeler, you would place the transmission into the lowest gear and activate the starter motor. The other option depends on if the train is oncoming. And that is to flee towards the oncoming train so you wont be "blown up" downrange by your own destroyed vehicle.

If you do the job properly you will not stall.. one of the rules is to cross the tracks in a gear that permits you to transit the crossing in one move. Never never never remove the power from the transmission.

Regulations require passenger and hazmat vehicles to execute a stop at the white line that denotes the crossing, turn on the 4 way flashers, open the wondows and door and listen for the train. As you listen look both ways and back to the driver's side of the track. When you decide to cross ensure that there are no signals or obstructions that will interfere with your attempt.

If you observe a bus driver stopping on the tracks note the bus number and contact the school system to get this to thier attention. There is no excuse for slacking off at a crossing because things are hard to see.

I always thought this law sounded good on the books, but was usually worse than useless in real life.

There were so many times that I would be approaching a grade crossing and see a truck or bus approaching the tracks, stop, and then proceed to cross in front of my train (the stall factor is what I would worry about); and it did not seem to matter if I was running a passenger train at 70mph or a slow drag out of the yard at 5mph. I would much rather have the truck or bus cross at traffic speeds and get off the tracks as soon as possible.

[oltmannd]

In Gwinnett Co. GA, the school busses are not allowed to use road crossings when carrying kids. Only empty busses can cross. Routes are arranged to use the few overpasses that exist.

[jchnhtfd]

Zardoz -- oh I do agree with you. What is happening is simply that the drivers are obeying the letter of the law -- and paying no attention at all. It gets automatic with them; as I said earlier, they aren't thingking 'why'.

Gabe -- my own bussing experiences were so long ago they have faded into a fog! But I do recall the bus driver stopping, opening the door and the windows and now and then turning around and hushing us! Of course, the fact that the line in question was the GN main line out of Minneapolis may have had something to do with that... ! And when I was learning to drive a standard, I sure did stall it from time to time! But... should a school bus driver, or hazmat driver, be at the level of experience where he or she stalls a standard? I agree that perhaps they aren't from MIT -- but do they have to be? I'd rather have a durn good steady mechanic... ! (I know what you meant, though!).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this law was enacted on a Federal level, nationwide during the early 1970s.

In fact I remember seeing a children's cartoon skit showing the process of how a bill is proposed by citizens and lawmakers and then passed by congress. The bill that was being shown in the cartoon was that All School Buses Must Stop At Railroad Crossings. I saw that around 1973.

I belive that was from ABCs "Schoolhouse Rock" Mr Bill...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

Zardoz -- oh I do agree with you. What is happening is simply that the drivers are obeying the letter of the law -- and paying no attention at all. It gets automatic with them; as I said earlier, they aren't thingking 'why'.

Gabe -- my own bussing experiences were so long ago they have faded into a fog! But I do recall the bus driver stopping, opening the door and the windows and now and then turning around and hushing us! Of course, the fact that the line in question was the GN main line out of Minneapolis may have had something to do with that... ! And when I was learning to drive a standard, I sure did stall it from time to time! But... should a school bus driver, or hazmat driver, be at the level of experience where he or she stalls a standard? I agree that perhaps they aren't from MIT -- but do they have to be? I'd rather have a durn good steady mechanic... ! (I know what you meant, though!).

Stalls are not common in heavy vehicles. I have stalled once or twice in my time. Usually this is due to extreme fatique or very very steep situations (You wont believe where they place stop signs)

The increasing use of heavy automatic transmissions in Class 8 Vehicles permit better management of power to the wheels and possibly require less experience to operate properly.

I have driven a Freightliner Century with a Automatic transmission for about 210,000 miles over 10 months in heavy team service with FFE and it quit on me one time. That was because of a software defect related to the processor not being able to "erase" the stack due to accumulated data from 24/7 operation. A simple 5 minute wait to clear the memory and a reboot with the ignition key sorted that issue.

But stalls do and can happen because the majority of trucks still have manual shifting and frankly I believe that a strong transmission shifted properly by hand out performs a automatic any day. But I will not argue that the automatics make it less important to learn how to shift a truck and easier on the driver not to be so tired after a day. And they are quite valuable in rush hour traffic.

[espeefoamer]

I remember when I was in 1st grade the bus would stop at one crossing.About 100 feet beyond,the rails were spread apart,one to the left,the other to the right.This track was obviously abandoned,and had been for quite some time. I always wondred why we stopped at that crossing.This was about 1958 or 59.

[corwinda]

I've always wondered about the actual safety benefit of the stop before crossing the tracks. I see four potential problems.

1. Stall/breakdown on the track. (already discussed above.)

2. Leaves the vehicle on the track for a longer period due to slower speed.

3:. Stopping any vehicle in the middle of the road (especially on rural highways) is a good way to get hit from behind.

4. Inclement weather makes the above problems worse; and adds its own special hazard. Fog or rprecipitation reduces what you can see when stopped - and the vision of that idiot doing 65 in pea soup behind you; snow or ice (and on certain rural roads; mud) makes it harder for the guy behind you to stop and adds the possibility of getting stuck due to lack of traction.

[Anonymous]

You have to remember that many crossings do not have gates or even lights, particularly back when stopping became mandatory. To proceed without stopping would almost literally be russian roulette. On the down side of this discussion I've responded to an accident where a school bus on a 4-lane 40 mph highway stopped as it should and the car behind slammed into it. But that was because of that thing you can't legislate against.

Bizarre as it sounds I have stalled an FL80 fire engine with an automatic more than once. It is extremely underpowered and when it is cold turning the steering wheel hard can stall it.

RH

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
2. Leaves the vehicle on the track for a longer period due to slower speed.

Slower speed also means that it takes less distance to stop. Even at 5 mph, a car's only on the tracks for a second or two... but at 55 mph (rural crossing) it can take 100' to stop as opposed to 5 feet. (I'm pulling numbers out of my head here, so they may be wrong... the idea should be clear, though.)

[Anonymous]

I agree that being aware of a crossing is a good thing. I think that it is good for the bus to stop before the crossing and look to see if a train is approaching.

I guess the idea behind the law is that if you see a train wait. This should work at most crossings. If the driver hears a horn or see's a train coming then the large vehicle shouldn't cross. No concern for the bus stalling on the tracks if the bus is never on them. If there is no train coming and the bus stalls it gives the bus driver time to get in touch with the railraod to tell them the situation and evacuate the scene in time. I understand some crossings are hard to see but it's better to be safe then sorry I guess.

My next question is, When should a bus stop stopping at an abandoned line. There is a clearly abadoned line going through town on my old school bus route I used to ride. The line has been cut and no trains could possibly be on the line going through my town. Should a large vehicle be made to stop at these crossings or should their be a provision of the law to say you don't have to stop at these. My town has taken out some of the crossings to change this but still it's to costly to remove every crossing.
Andrew

[Puckdropper]

Sometimes you have crossings that are exempt or say "tracks out of service" like those in Newton County, IN. (Just a few miles off of Rt 41.) School buses and CVs probably don't have to stop, but if I was driving I'd be sure to slow! Railroad crossings are sometimes really bumpy, especially if they're out of service.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coborn35

Why do school buses stop on the tracks, openn their doors and look?
Because, if there was a train coming and they were stopped, wouldnt they be dead anyway? Wouldnt it be safer to just go on the tracks after a glance down them?

Stupid Question, are you BRAIN DEAD.

Take your STUPID QUESTIONs to some brain dead reality TV show. ARE YOU REALLY THAT STUPID?

These are our kids, gosh, we should stop and look both ways before we cross a railroad.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP 236

Jim - Lawton NV MP 236

[AntonioFP45]

Hello SP9033,

You're likely a parent as I am and your response to Coborn is understandable, but take it easy. No need to blow torch him. He's a teen himself and likely hasn't had our adult experiences yet.

When I was a kid back in the early 70s I rode school buses. I used to wonderi why buses had to stop on tracks that had crossing gates and the view in both directions was unobstructed.[%-)]

When I got to high school I then understood as in the late 1970s there were a few "Train vs. School Buses" collisions or near misses in the news media.[:0][B)]

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by george745
My next question is, When should a bus stop stopping at an abandoned line. There is a clearly abadoned line going through town on my old school bus route I used to ride. The line has been cut and no trains could possibly be on the line going through my town. Should a large vehicle be made to stop at these crossings or should their be a provision of the law to say you don't have to stop at these. My town has taken out some of the crossings to change this but still it's to costly to remove every crossing.
Andrew

Not sure about Ohio, but in Wisconsin, if the crossing is not removed, they put an "Exempt" sign on all crossing signs at crossings where a stop is no longer required due to abandonment or very low traffic density, in which case the trains are required to stop and 'flag' the crossing before proceding.

[spbed]

Look if stop, look listen just saves one life it is worth the regulation.

[Anonymous]

I live near such an abandoned line; the gates are tied up to the poles supporting them. The stop lines still get painted, and the school busses still stop at the lines, open their doors and listen.

I'd rather have a school bus driver be overcautious than stupid around any traffic, not only railroads.

Erik