When will we see a new generation of 4 axle "road switchers?"

[n2mopac]

I was watching the UP local switch industries in Sedalia, MO new my home town today. It was pulled by three GP 38-2s. These old workhorses still seem to be running great, but they are aging and except one with a fairly fresh "lightning bolt" paint scheme they look their age. Watching them got me to wondering when we will see a new generation of 4 axle locomotives. I know mainline road service is and will forever be dominated by high horsepower 6 axle locomitives now, but there is still plenty of local, industrial, and yard service to be done in thie world where 6 axle locomotive are just too long and heavy. I know all about rebuilds, but you cannot rebuild 40 and 50 year old diesles forever. So, what is your opinion? When will we see a GP70 or some new generation of 4 axle "road switcher?"

Ron

[Bergie]

As much as I'd love to see it, I'm afraid the influx of six axle diesels is going to have a trickle down effect that's going to make the four axle all but obsolete. There are, like you mention, cases where you can't take a six axle unit, but it seems like if they can manage their surroundings, the six axle unit is going to get the job. Every time I go back to Galesburg, Ill. I see another six axle unit that's been converted to a remote control unit.

Bergie

[CopCarSS]

With the advent of self-steering trucks, I think the possibilities are really dropping. The overall locomotive length is the only factor necessitating shorter wheelbase locomotive, and these are naturally more conducive to 4 axle locos.

The majority of roads needing short wheelbase locomotives don't have the money for brand spanking new units. As a result, I think you'll see everything from Geep 7's through Geep 60's soldiering on for a good long time without any replacements.

Chris
Denver, CO

[edblysard]

http://www.gmemd.com/en/locomotive/switcher/gp20d/

Here ya go...
I use the MP1500D, from Bosie locomotive works, which builds these, same locomotive, different paint.

CEFX has a entire fleet of these guys, 2000hp with dynamic brakes, and 1500 hp with out...on lease to UP.
They are all over the Houston area, doing yard work and main line...
Where I work, the PTRA, we have a entire fleet of the 1500 hp units, have been using them since 1996...tough little locomotives.

Ed

[ericsp]

I don't think we will ever see a GP70. That is alot of horsepower for a four axle locomotive doing switching.

[AlcoRS11Nut]

Not for a long time the hords of GP38-2 and GP39-2's need to die-off first........end-cab switchers we will never see them again, I think they went the way of the caboose.

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bergie

As much as I'd love to see it, I'm afraid the influx of six axle diesels is going to have a trickle down effect that's going to make the four axle all but obsolete. There are, like you mention, cases where you can't take a six axle unit, but it seems like if they can manage their surroundings, the six axle unit is going to get the job. Every time I go back to Galesburg, Ill. I see another six axle unit that's been converted to a remote control unit.

Bergie

personly i dont see the new 6 axle locomotives replaces any 4 axles in yard service... the new ones suck for switching... now if your meaning older 6 axles like the sd40s...then yes...i can kinda agree with you..but if you are meaning 6 axles like a -8.... man..i feel sorry for that yard job... it would be 3 shifts later befor that thing would be up to speed for a somewhat good kick... but i see the class 1s rebuilding a small fleet of the 4 axles with the new emistions controlls to meet the new EPA air emitions standers....for places that can only have 4 axle power...
csx engineer

[K. P. Harrier]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

http://www.gmemd.com/en/locomotive/switcher/gp20d/

Here ya go...
I use the MP1500D, from Bosie locomotive works, which builds these, same locomotive, different paint.

CEFX has a entire fleet of these guys, 2000hp with dynamic brakes, and 1500 hp with out...on lease to UP.
They are all over the Houston area, doing yard work and main line...
Where I work, the PTRA, we have a entire fleet of the 1500 hp units, have been using them since 1996...tough little locomotives.

Ed

Ed:

Since you are a professional railroader, what do YOU think of EMD's GP20D?

[edblysard]

Buy 'em,...lots of them.
They load up fast, kick great, stop on a dime...look at the brakes, dual clasp set up, two shoes per wheel and two cylinders per truck side.

For versatility, MU two of them, you get 4000hp on 16 axles, instead of 12 like a Dash 9 or SD....

Keep in mind for smaller regional and local railroads, the cost of a used GP38 is minimal compared to these, but if I had to buy road/switcher power for yards work and locals, and had a good budget, this is it.
We use the MP1500D, Morrsion Knudson's original version of this switcher, we have a 25 unit fleet, in service since 1996, and our crews love them.

I work with one of these every day, and think they are a fine road switcher...
Ed

[K. P. Harrier]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

For versatility, MU two of them, you get 4000hp on 16 axles, instead of 12 like a Dash 9 or SD....

Ed:

Would that be practical for heavy road service? Your expertise, please …

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AlcoRS11Nut

Not for a long time the hords of GP38-2 and GP39-2's need to die-off first........end-cab switchers we will never see them again, I think they went the way of the caboose.

I wouldn't bet against GP38-2s reaching 100 years of age, unless particulate emissions or NOx on existing locos get regulated.

I agree on std switchers passing away - no toilet - and many states (and union agreements?) require them.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Buy 'em,...lots of them.
They load up fast, kick great, stop on a dime...look at the brakes, dual clasp set up, two shoes per wheel and two cylinders per truck side.

For versatility, MU two of them, you get 4000hp on 16 axles, instead of 12 like a Dash 9 or SD....

Keep in mind for smaller regional and local railroads, the cost of a used GP38 is minimal compared to these, but if I had to buy road/switcher power for yards work and locals, and had a good budget, this is it.
We use the MP1500D, Morrsion Knudson's original version of this switcher, we have a 25 unit fleet, in service since 1996, and our crews love them.

I work with one of these every day, and think they are a fine road switcher...
Ed

I thought y'all were down to 24..........

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

For versatility, MU two of them, you get 4000hp on 16 axles, instead of 12 like a Dash 9 or SD...

Ed - have to take you to task on your math on this one.... 2 locomotives @ 4 axles each = 16 axles? Must be that new math....[:D]

[dharmon]

Psst...he's a victim of the Texas edjacatshun sistum lyk mee.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

For versatility, MU two of them, you get 4000hp on 16 axles, instead of 12 like a Dash 9 or SD...

Ed - have to take you to task on your math on this one.... 2 locomotives @ 4 axles each = 16 axles? Must be that new math....[:D]

Let's hope he get the counting correct when he is giving car-counts to the engineer...[:D].

But to answer the question (sort of) it depends on the six-axle's wheel-slip control. And old locomotive with little or no wheel-slip control other than the primitive system used on the GP7's & 9's would be much more likely to slip in adverse conditions than a modern locomotive with it's computer-controlled wheel-slip system, even with eight axles instead of six.

The upside to using two units is that in some industries a six-axle is simply too heavy and/or too long for the track (some industries use 60# rail anchored in mud [with a few ties for decoration] for their track); so what you do is separate the two smaller units when you must work on an industry track.

When the CNW used to switch American Motors plant in Kenosha, we had to use old FM or Alco units--the GP7 & 9's were too long for the track curves inside the plant . We even carried long crowbars on the units to be used to adjust the drawbars for coupling on the curves, which were so extreme that unless the drawbar sill was very well lubricated, it was very difficult to swing the drawbar far enough to one side to line up the couplers, hence the use of the long crowbar.

[CSXrules4eva]

hummmm . . . . . . . . . . .when will we ever see a new modern and advanced 4 axle road switcher????// I can tell you later on in the future we will most likly see a Diesel - hybrid 4 axle switcher package. Here are my predictions : This engine will meet Teir 3 or 4 emissions (when the EPA comes up with such an emissions package). The generator system would most likely run on much higher amperage than, that of modern diesels today.

[edblysard]

Ha ha ha...
Ok, I meant wheels, not axles...but then again, Dan is right, the Texas School system is not the best in the west!

And yes, Dan, we are down to 24, one got a little bent when a grain train and it did a cornfield meet...

Ed

[CShaveRR]

Sarah, we have something like that already with the Green Goat--just about every major railroad has ordered some of these, IIRC. It's a diesel engine and batteries, and is rated at 2000 horsepower on four axles. AMG

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

It appears that the role of the yard switcher and medium size (1500-2000 HP) B-B road swicher have pretty much merged. Right now, the market for this type of locomotive is pretty much filled by rebuilt GP38's and de-turboed GP40's & GP50's. The Green Goats and MPI products will fill their niches in this market although those niches may expand as the pool of available GP38's shrinks and clean air standards get tightened.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

Sarah, we have something like that already with the Green Goat--just about every major railroad has ordered some of these, IIRC. It's a diesel engine and batteries, and is rated at 2000 horsepower on four axles. AMG

CP has ordered a whole whack of Green Goats for their yards up here in Canada, they should be arriving anytime now, so keep an eye out for them.

They're also the first locomotvies CP has bought that come ready to go with Belt Pack technology, so CP doesn't have to retro-fit them to go engineer-less.

[daveklepper]

Our Texan might be dislexic like me. He probably meant 16 wheels, not axles. Luckily when I did engineering of various types I had a secretary. Now only spell check.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by K. P. Harrier

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

For versatility, MU two of them, you get 4000hp on 16 axles, instead of 12 like a Dash 9 or SD....

Ed:

Would that be practical for heavy road service? Your expertise, please …

Heavy road service is relative for the terrain. On flat territory 2,000 horse engines can move some tonnage but in hilly or rolly divisions or industrial tracks some can really drag. Personnaly i think that the gp15-1's are awesome little locos for switching and local work but if they are over tonnaged they won't pull their way out of a wet paper bag

[edblysard]

True..
The MP15Ds we have employee a fairly state of the art on board computer system that monitors wheel slip and stall...if you some how manage to slip all eight wheels, the on board will cut out all the traction motors to prevent crossover burns in the brushes...with the MP15 and 2000 ACs, it will adjust power to each axel to try and compensate.
We use 2 MP15Ds to switch my job, I rountinly pull cuts of 110 cars, with no air brakes...and I switch with normal cuts up to 40 cars at a time, no problem.

UP seems to like the new GP20s on lease from CEFX, I see them MUed in pairs on their big yard to yard and local trains.
I would suspect that, as was mentioned above, on any real grade, you would need to lash up a few of them to get the job done, but these things will work their wheels off for you.
I have flat switched with SWs, GP38s, even a GP60, a GE dash 9, and a SD70M...I will take the MP15D for switching and industry work any time!
You can get these things in some really tight places, and you can see out of the cabs better than any other locomotive built, period.

Ed

[coborn35]

I believe in the comeback of the four axle switcher, i.e Green Goat, MP15B,GP200D etc.
Eventually there will a fully battery operated switcher and it wil replace all the other switchers. I dont know if they have done this yet but maybe they will modify the GP38's in GP38X or something like that. Similar to the SD-M's they had up here on the Missabe which extended some locomotives lives by around 20-30 years.