Streamliner Pioneers and the dome car...

[Kozzie]

I've been enjoying those articles [:p] in the special edition of Classic Trains about the Streamliner Pioneers e.g. the Super Chief, 20th Century Limited, Broadway, the Rocket fleet and many others. [:)]

One thing that struck me was the absence of dome cars in the photos. Were they introduced a little later? [;)]

Dave

[Modelcar]

...Can't answer with certainity, but GM's Train Of Tommorow that toured this country about 1947 or 48 had cars on it with domes in the center {not full length}. I'm not saying it was the first but it was one of the early ones with Domes.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

...Can't answer with certainity, but GM's Train Of Tommorow that toured this country about 1947 or 48 had cars on it with domes in the center {not full length}. I'm not saying it was the first but it was one of the early ones with Domes.

Quentin, thanks for that, maybe it was a post-war development to get ridership numbers up?

Dave

[Modelcar]

...Dave: From the general data I just now looked at it seems domes commercially produced must have been started around 1952 or so....

[Anonymous]

Kozzie, you are correct. Most of the streamliners you mentioned were from the 1930s, and the domes were of the very late 40s. The Super Chief eventually got a very luxurious Pleasure Dome lounge. The 20th Century and the Broadway never did, because of low bridge clearances in the East.

[Modelcar]

Dave: But I personally did see the train I mentioned in my first post that did have about 4 dome cars on it....It went on tour all over this country. I saw it on a coal branch {the S&C}, B&O that ran between Johnstown, Pa. to Rockwood...It was a coal hauler and not a route that normally had a passenger train. I was a high school student at the time and the school let us out to walk near by to see "this new train" pass by...Imagine doing that today....

[Kozzie]

Ifish and Quentin - your comments are appreciated.

I think low bridge and tunnel clearance is one of the reasons we never saw them down here either...

Dave

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kozzie

I've been enjoying those articles [:p] in the special edition of Classic Trains about the Streamliner Pioneers e.g. the Super Chief, 20th Century Limited, Broadway, the Rocket fleet and many others. [:)]

One thing that struck me was the absence of dome cars in the photos. Were they introduced a little later? [;)]

Dave

Dome cars were a product of the 40's.

Secondly trains such as the 20th Century Limited and the Broadway Limited operated into New York....to enter New York they both had to utilize tunnels, tunnels that were constructed much earlier in the 20th Century and were not constructed to have clearances that would permit the operation of Dome Cars.

While the B&O did utilize Dome Cars on the Columbian and the Capitol Limited, passengers were not permitted to occupy the dome seats between Silver Springs, MD and Washington Union Terminal, account operating underneath the Electric Catenary of the Pennsylvania Railroad in Washington Union Terminal. Whle the domes cleared the cantenary, it was believed the the high voltage nature of the cantenary had the 'possibility' of causing a shock to occupants of the dome due to the relatively close proximity of the catenary wire and the top of the dome.

For more information than you may ever care to know about Dome Cars visit the following site.
http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/WebLurkersDOMEmain/

[espeefoamer]

The first dome car was home built by the CB&Q in 1945.The rest is history.A railroad official got the idea from a cab ride taken,on FTs through the Royal Gorge.

[Anonymous]

The California Zephyr, including several Budd-built short domes, started up in 1950.

[Kozzie]

Thanks guys.
BaltACD, that web site you mentioned is very good. Included graphics of all the makes and color scheme combinations. Very good reference for passenger train nuts [:-,] like me [;)]

Dave

[Anonymous]

Just like baltACD said, the NYC, PRR, MR,& many other eastern route's had smaller
tunnel's. the SP's daylight, the SF super chief, & the RG&W's CA zepher had at
least 2 dome cars per train. I do know the Rock island R.R. had observation cars too,
& owned tall tunnel clearences, which also was made for Budd rail cars & 1 level
double deckers.

[passengerfan]

Pullman Standartd built the TRAIN OF TOMORROW in May 1947. It consisted of four dome cars pulled by a matching EMD E7A. One dome was STAR DUST a Dome Coach, another was SKY VIEW a dome dining car, yet another was DREAM CLOUD a dome sleeper and finally their was MOON GLOW the Dome Observation lounge car. Union Pacific purchased the complete train in 1950 and after repainting added the cars to trains 457-458 operating a daily round trip between Portland and Seattle. The cars art first retained their original names later they were renumbered. The DREAM CLOUD operated as a Dome Parlor car as overnight service was not needed on such a short run.
The first modern dome car was built by the CB&Q in June 1945 when prewar Budd 52-revenue seat coach 4714 SILVER ALCHEMY was rebuilt in the roads Aurora Shops into SILVER DOME.
The CB&Q introduced a pair of Dome Streamliners the Vista Dome Twin Zephyrs on December 19, 1947 between Chicago and the Twin Cities operating two daily ropund trips daily. These ne seven car streamliners had no less than five domes in each consist.
On March 20, 1947 the new Vista Dome CALIFORNIA ZEPHYRS entered service between Chicago and Oakland requiring six train sets for daily operation they operated over the CB&Q, D&RGW and WP. Each eleven car consist had five domes in each consist.
In May June 1948 the MP inaugurated three domes to the COLORADO EAGLE between St. Louis and Denver one of these cars would later be assigned to one of the MISSOURI RIVER EAGLES.
In September 1949 the Rio Grande received three dome observatiuons from the C&O originally built for the CHESSIE and assigned them to the ROYAL GORGE trains.
On June 25, 1950 the B&O introduced the new COLUMBIANS between Chicago and Baltimore with a single dome in each eight car consist.
On February 26, 1950 the Wabash introduced the BLUE BIRD round trip daily between Chicago St Louis with four domes later a fith dome would be added to the seven car train.
In December 1950 the B&O introduced the former C&O CHESSIE sleeper domes to the CAPITAL LIMITED and one consist of the SHENANDOAH.
The Santa Fe introduced the Plaeasure domes to the SUPER CHIEF in December 1950.
In May-June 1952 the MP received five P/S domes for assignm,ent to the TEXAS EAGLES two were assigned to the WEST TEXASEAGLES, two were assigned to the SOUTH TEXAS EAGLES and the extra was assigned to the other MISSOURI RIVER EAGLE.
The Milwaukee Road added the first full domes to the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA, MORNING HIAWATHAS and AFTERNOON HIAWATHAS in December 1952 these cars were called Super domes.
The CB&Q inaugurated the KANSAS CITY ZEPHYR trains between Chicago and Kansas City February 1, 1953 each consist had two Vista domes. At the same time the overnight AMERICAN ROYAL ZEPHYR was inaugurated with one dome in each overnight consist .
In January 1954 the EL CAPITAN consists received Big Dome lounge cars between Chicago and Los angeles at the same the same time they added Big Domes to the KANSAS CITYAN and CHICAGOAN.
In May 1954 the Santa Fe introduced Big domes to the new SAN FRANCISCO CHIEF.
In July -August 1954 Dome coaches were added to the Vista Dome NORTH COAST LIMITED.\SP introduced their first homebuilt 3/4 dome in July 1954
Between September and December 1954 two dome sleeping cars were added to each NORTH COAST LIMITED.
In December 1954 and January 1955 the UP received ten Dome coaches for assignment to the CITY OF PORTLAND and CHALLENGER.
Fifteen Dome Lounge OIbservations arrived between February and April 1955 for assignment to the CITY OF LOS ANGELES, CITY OF PORTLAND, and CITY OF ST. LOUIS. The Canadian Pacific received 36 domes in 1955 from Budd they were of two types Budd Skyline Domes that provided food and beverage service and coach seating they were assigned to the CANADIAN, DOMINION, and ATLANTIC LIMITED. The other eighteen domes were the PARK observations with sleeping lounge and observation space they were assigned to the CANADIAN, and DOMINION.
Six additional 3/4 length domes were completed by SP Sacramento shops between March and May 1955 with seven of these cars they were assigned two to the SHASTA DAYLIGHTS, two to the SAN JOAQUIN DAYLIGHTS, and three to the CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO between Oakland and Ogden.
In April May 1955 the UP received ten Dome Dining Cars for assignment to the CITY OF PORTLAND and CITY OF LOS ANGELES.
In May 1955 the GN added three dome coaches to each EMPIRE BUILDER consist and in October 1955 a full length Dome lounge was added to the EMPIRE BUILDER for the first class passengers.
Beginning October 28, 1956 the CB&Q introduced new Vista Dome Denver Zephyrs between Chicago and Denver with three domes per consist.
The last new Dome cars built in the US were the six P/S built for the Wabash and UP for CITY of ST. LOUIS in November - December 1968. (these cars were built to the AC&F plans of the earlier UP dome coaches.

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by johnwbaie

The California Zephyr, including several Budd-built short domes, started up in 1950.

The California Zephyr was inaugurated on Feb.20,1949.The last run was Feb.22 1970.

[espeefoamer]

The Southern Pacific built its 7 domes in the Sacramento shops.They had a lower dome profile to fit through the tunnels.These cars were rebuilt from parlor and lounge cars,in 1954.

[passengerfan]

Espeefoamer you are correct about the year the CZ entered service must have been a typo on my part the Month my three references show are all March 20, 1949.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan

Pullman Standartd built the TRAIN OF TOMORROW in May 1947. It consisted of four dome cars pulled by a matching EMD E7A. One dome was STAR DUST a Dome Coach, another was SKY VIEW a dome dining car, yet another was DREAM CLOUD a dome sleeper and finally their was MOON GLOW the Dome Observation lounge car. Union Pacific purchased the complete train in 1950 and after repainting added the cars to trains 457-458 operating a daily round trip between Portland and Seattle. The cars art first retained their original names later they were renumbered. The DREAM CLOUD operated as a Dome Parlor car as overnight service was not needed on such a short run.
The first modern dome car was built by the CB&Q in June 1945 when prewar Budd 52-revenue seat coach 4714 SILVER ALCHEMY was rebuilt in the roads Aurora Shops into SILVER DOME.
The CB&Q introduced a pair of Dome Streamliners the Vista Dome Twin Zephyrs on December 19, 1947 between Chicago and the Twin Cities operating two daily ropund trips daily. These ne seven car streamliners had no less than five domes in each consist.
On March 20, 1947 the new Vista Dome CALIFORNIA ZEPHYRS entered service between Chicago and Oakland requiring six train sets for daily operation they operated over the CB&Q, D&RGW and WP. Each eleven car consist had five domes in each consist.
In May June 1948 the MP inaugurated three domes to the COLORADO EAGLE between St. Louis and Denver one of these cars would later be assigned to one of the MISSOURI RIVER EAGLES.
In September 1949 the Rio Grande received three dome observatiuons from the C&O originally built for the CHESSIE and assigned them to the ROYAL GORGE trains.
On June 25, 1950 the B&O introduced the new COLUMBIANS between Chicago and Baltimore with a single dome in each eight car consist.
On February 26, 1950 the Wabash introduced the BLUE BIRD round trip daily between Chicago St Louis with four domes later a fith dome would be added to the seven car train.
In December 1950 the B&O introduced the former C&O CHESSIE sleeper domes to the CAPITAL LIMITED and one consist of the SHENANDOAH.
The Santa Fe introduced the Plaeasure domes to the SUPER CHIEF in December 1950.
In May-June 1952 the MP received five P/S domes for assignm,ent to the TEXAS EAGLES two were assigned to the WEST TEXASEAGLES, two were assigned to the SOUTH TEXAS EAGLES and the extra was assigned to the other MISSOURI RIVER EAGLE.
The Milwaukee Road added the first full domes to the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA, MORNING HIAWATHAS and AFTERNOON HIAWATHAS in December 1952 these cars were called Super domes.
The CB&Q inaugurated the KANSAS CITY ZEPHYR trains between Chicago and Kansas City February 1, 1953 each consist had two Vista domes. At the same time the overnight AMERICAN ROYAL ZEPHYR was inaugurated with one dome in each overnight consist .
In January 1954 the EL CAPITAN consists received Big Dome lounge cars between Chicago and Los angeles at the same the same time they added Big Domes to the KANSAS CITYAN and CHICAGOAN.
In May 1954 the Santa Fe introduced Big domes to the new SAN FRANCISCO CHIEF.
In July -August 1954 Dome coaches were added to the Vista Dome NORTH COAST LIMITED.\SP introduced their first homebuilt 3/4 dome in July 1954
Between September and December 1954 two dome sleeping cars were added to each NORTH COAST LIMITED.
In December 1954 and January 1955 the UP received ten Dome coaches for assignment to the CITY OF PORTLAND and CHALLENGER.
Fifteen Dome Lounge OIbservations arrived between February and April 1955 for assignment to the CITY OF LOS ANGELES, CITY OF PORTLAND, and CITY OF ST. LOUIS. The Canadian Pacific received 36 domes in 1955 from Budd they were of two types Budd Skyline Domes that provided food and beverage service and coach seating they were assigned to the CANADIAN, DOMINION, and ATLANTIC LIMITED. The other eighteen domes were the PARK observations with sleeping lounge and observation space they were assigned to the CANADIAN, and DOMINION.
Six additional 3/4 length domes were completed by SP Sacramento shops between March and May 1955 with seven of these cars they were assigned two to the SHASTA DAYLIGHTS, two to the SAN JOAQUIN DAYLIGHTS, and three to the CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO between Oakland and Ogden.
In April May 1955 the UP received ten Dome Dining Cars for assignment to the CITY OF PORTLAND and CITY OF LOS ANGELES.
In May 1955 the GN added three dome coaches to each EMPIRE BUILDER consist and in October 1955 a full length Dome lounge was added to the EMPIRE BUILDER for the first class passengers.
Beginning October 28, 1956 the CB&Q introduced new Vista Dome Denver Zephyrs between Chicago and Denver with three domes per consist.
The last new Dome cars built in the US were the six P/S built for the Wabash and UP for CITY of ST. LOUIS in November - December 1968. (these cars were built to the AC&F plans of the earlier UP dome coaches.

Alan - the detail is much appreciated. [:)] I'll print your post for a hard copy reference.

I am intrigued with the Dream Cloud dome car. Was that a full length dome?

Dave

[passengerfan]

Kozzie Dream Cloud was a standard short dome with 24 seats in the dome and benmeath the dome was located three Compartments. Forward of the dome on the main level was two Drawing Rooms and to the rear of the dome on the main level was 8 duplex roomettes. I traveled on the car when a young lad as my dad sent me to Portland to a relatives on many weekends from Seattle. He always felt I would be safer in the Duplex Roomette than in a coach or regulkar parlor car and besides it was easier for the car attendant to keep and eye on me. I remeber seeing the car in a Pocatello scrap dealers yard in the 1960's and eventually it was cut up for scrap the Train of Tomorrow Dome lounge Observation was rebuilt without the observation end and survives to this day in Ogden where it was rescued from the same Pocatello scrap dealer and eventually will be restored. Alan

[Kozzie]

After travelling in the car as a youngster, it must have been sad to see it junked.
What a shame it's gone rather than preserved - at least the observation dome was rescued.

I would have loved to see them down here [:)] - if the bridges and tunnels allowed it. We have so much 'big sky' country on our transcontinental route - Sydney to Perth....not to mention our new North-South transcon main line right up through the centre to Darwin...it's on those sort of runs the dome cars would be brilliant!......sigh...[:(]

Dave

[Modelcar]

Dave....I'm sure you can find actual photos of the Train Of Tomorrow over on Goggle if interested. I know I have.

[siberianmo]

More info on dome cars in one place than anyone could hope for! Great responses to a very interesting subject. So, I'll add a bit of a divergent reply .......

For me, riding in the domes "is where it is at." Now, before you jump my case to inform me that this cannot be done - think CANADA and VIA Rail. Yes - those beautiful Budd domes of the stainless steel variety are running regularly to the land north of ours.

I have been traveling with VIA Rail (for pleasure) for about the past 15 years and always book a bedroom as close to the Park Car (observation dome - last car) as possible.

Many, many times my wife and I have had the pleasure of getting a room within the Park. Not only that, but we've made two round trips between Toronto and Vancouver in the drawing room, also located in the Park Car. Just a great experience and for me - the ONLY way to see the sights is in the dome.

Our next trip will be this May to Halifax, Nova Scotia for a visit with family and friends. Of course we have booked our bedroom (in the Park Car!) for both segments. It's a nice ride from Montreal to Halifax - a bit "bumpy" in some parts of New Brunswick thanx to the selling off of some trackage to an outfit not really "into" maintenance - but other than that, an enjoyable trip.

Check out the VIA Rail site - www.viarail.ca - for some good current info on their trains.

Thanx for the topic!

[BaltACD]

An aside on the Dome Cars that the B&O operated.

In 1952 they added a light bar to the leading end of the cars. The lights were used at night to illiminate the passing scenery to the right side of the cars (away from oncoming trains in B&O double track territory). The dome cars were intended and did operate on the Columbian and Capitol Limited which were both overnight trains from Baltimore/Washington to Chicago (while prior to 1958 the Capitol was scheduled from New York to Chicago - the consist that operated New York to Washington was not the consist that operated Washington to Chicago).

The B&O bought 3 Dome-sleepers from the C&O's failed Chessie. The 'odd' dome that was not operating on the Capitol Limited, was used on one side of the Shenandoah, which operated on a nominal daylight schedule between Washington and Pittsburgh in both directions and a nighttime schedule between Pittsburgh and Chicago.

They were great cars and I had the opportunity to ride them many times.

[daveklepper]

You may be correct about the domes of the CZ arriving on the three railroads before the train itself was inaugurated. I think I may have read in TRAINS of that period of the cars being tried out on the old Exposition Flyer before the CZ took its place.

The "official" who road through the Feather River Canyon was a GN President or VP, and the dome car was his idea. A friend on the CB&Q picked it up for the first converted car and GM went on to fund the Train of Tomnorrow from PS. I remember it available for viewing in the Bronx, and had the privilege of riding a streetcar from the subway to view it and tour the inside.

[Kozzie]

Thanks everyone for your comments - and the stories of personal experiences make it that much richer..[:)]

Dave

[tatans]

Just what happened to all thos Budd cars, domes, full length domes? etc: scrapped ? turned into chicken coops? melted down for automobile bumpers? where did they go? were ANY of them saved?? there must have been quite a few of them made.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

An aside on the Dome Cars that the B&O operated.

In 1952 they added a light bar to the leading end of the cars. The lights were used at night to illiminate the passing scenery to the right side of the cars (away from oncoming trains in B&O double track territory). The dome cars were intended and did operate on the Columbian and Capitol Limited which were both overnight trains from Baltimore/Washington to Chicago (while prior to 1958 the Capitol was scheduled from New York to Chicago - the consist that operated New York to Washington was not the consist that operated Washington to Chicago).

The B&O bought 3 Dome-sleepers from the C&O's failed Chessie. The 'odd' dome that was not operating on the Capitol Limited, was used on one side of the Shenandoah, which operated on a nominal daylight schedule between Washington and Pittsburgh in both directions and a nighttime schedule between Pittsburgh and Chicago.

They were great cars and I had the opportunity to ride them many times.

BaltACD, those lights on the leading end of the cars sounds intriguing...[:)] I wonder how the train would have looked to an outside observer in the evening..I reckon that would have made interesting night photos, particularly on a slow shutter speed...[;)]


Dave

[Anonymous]

Some of the domes are still around. The tourist line I work for has one the 7 domes built by the SP. We acquired it from a private owner somewhere in Mexico. The car is definatley in rough shape and will take lots of cash and time to return to service

[eastside]

QUOTE: Secondly trains such as the 20th Century Limited and the Broadway Limited operated into New York....to enter New York they both had to utilize tunnels, tunnels that were constructed much earlier in the 20th Century and were not constructed to have clearances that would permit the operation of Dome Cars.

Having ridden through both the Hudson River and Park Avenue tunnels countless times, I can assure you they just barely accommodate passenger cars of normal height. I assume the clearances reflect systemwide standards for both the NYC and PRR.

[passengerfan]

The Alaska Railroad still operates P/S, Budd and AC&F short domes and the tour operators operators operate a number of new domes and one still operates a couple of the former Santa Fe Big Domes.
The BNSF operate two full domes one ex GN the other ex AT&SF in their business fleet. The UP operate a number of Dome Coaches, diners and lounges in their business fleet and many tourist roads operate a number of domes as well as private operators and private owners even the American European Express has a couple of domes. As far as car type goes their are probably more surviving dome type cars than just about any other type. Even one of the former SP 3/4 length domes is now operating on the Panama Railroad in daily service. Many in the US are available for charter and others are even in stationary use like those at the BNSF headquarters in Fort Worth. Lots of domes still around if one wants to look for them.

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Just what happened to all thos Budd cars, domes, full length domes? etc: scrapped ? turned into chicken coops? melted down for automobile bumpers? where did they go? were ANY of them saved?? there must have been quite a few of them made.

http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/WebLurkersDOMEmain/

Will tell you all you ever wanted to know, and more.