New Japanese rail tunnel

[Anonymous]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4302291.stm

Cost: $600 million

Length: 16.5 miles

Cost per mile: $36.4 million per mile. Seems a rather high price per mile for a rail tunnel. I remember something about a highway tunnel in Norway that cost about $200 million for about 25 miles, or roughly $8 million per mile.

[dldance]

I don't remember all the details - but this has been one of the most difficult tunnels ever. Almost ever inch of it (pardon - centimeter) is in one seismic zone or another. The tunnel is very deep to stay in the rock formation under the ocean channel and they had a lot of problems with water in fractured rock as I recall. Also the approach needed to start a long distance inland to keep the gradient profile of the tunnel acceptable to high speed running.

dd

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dldance

I don't remember all the details - but this has been one of the most difficult tunnels ever. Almost ever inch of it (pardon - centimeter) is in one seismic zone or another. The tunnel is very deep to stay in the rock formation under the ocean channel and they had a lot of problems with water in fractured rock as I recall. Also the approach needed to start a long distance inland to keep the gradient profile of the tunnel acceptable to high speed running.

dd

I didn't see anything in the article about this tunnel going undersea. If so, why didn't they use tubing lowered onto the seabed aka Chunnel?

[eastside]

If the U.S. is an example of a country trying to get pork barrel under control, Japan is an example of a country with pork barrel run berserk. They build road tunnels to hamlets of a few hundred people to satisfy political constituencies. The level of government debt is much greater than in the U.S.

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
I didn't see anything in the article about this tunnel going undersea. If so, why didn't they use tubing lowered onto the seabed aka Chunnel?

The article says it's the longest land-tunnel.

[dldance]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eastside

If the U.S. is an example of a country trying to get pork barrel under control, Japan is an example of a country with pork barrel run berserk. They build road tunnels to hamlets of a few hundred people to satisfy political constituencies. The level of government debt is much greater than in the U.S.

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
I didn't see anything in the article about this tunnel going undersea. If so, why didn't they use tubing lowered onto the seabed aka Chunnel?

The article says it's the longest land-tunnel.

Sorry I was thinking of the tunnel linking the north and south island. The seismic comments still apply.

dd

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dldance

QUOTE: Originally posted by eastside

If the U.S. is an example of a country trying to get pork barrel under control, Japan is an example of a country with pork barrel run berserk. They build road tunnels to hamlets of a few hundred people to satisfy political constituencies. The level of government debt is much greater than in the U.S.

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal
I didn't see anything in the article about this tunnel going undersea. If so, why didn't they use tubing lowered onto the seabed aka Chunnel?

The article says it's the longest land-tunnel.

Sorry I was thinking of the tunnel linking the north and south island. The seismic comments still apply.

dd

Guys, the one that goes under the water, and connects the big island to Hokkaido (the north island) is the Siekan Tunnel, completed in 1988. Check out this link:

http://web-japan.org/atlas/architecture/arc02.html

This new $600 million tunnel sounds like the missing link for bullet train service to reach some place like Sapporo. That could be very useful economicly speaking.

[BaltACD]

What is Pork and what isn't, is in the eye of the beholder.

Governments believe it is in the Governments and the populations best interests to provide the opportunity for Economic Development. Public Works projects, in general, are designed to enhance one aspect or another of Economic Development.

Where the rub comes is in the fact the Economic Development does not benefit every member of society equally. Those who don't receive maximum benefit from the project refer to it as PORK.

PORK is in the eye of the beholder.

[eastside]

I define a pork barrel project as any government project that cannot be shown by any reasonable measure to provide a positive tangible economic return, i.e. a project that the private sector wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. Many Japanese road-tunnel projects fit in this category.

[Big_Boy_4005]

So guys, does anyone want to turn the PORK-O-METER on something domestic like Amtrak?

Japan is a half a world away, and consists of a bunch of volcanic islands situated on edge of the Pacific plate. Their society has rather different values from ours. Maybe they don't mind spending the money because they value the rail link more highly. To them this might be like the transcontinental railroad here.

[dldance]

In my few visits to Japan, I have found the their high speed rail is vital to the Japanese economy. Where we use air travel for most business travel - they use rail. An why not? Their subway and commuter rail system get you quickly and efficiently to the high speed rail stations where you board a comfortable train that gets you quickly to your destination. Frequent schedules mean minimal waiting.

On the other hand, the two airports serving the Tokyo area are each about an hour by train away from the business district. In fact, if you transfer from an international flight to a internal flight, you may have to transfer between the airports - by train.

Rather than being pork, high speed rail has proven to be a necessary part of the infrastructure for their economy. Notice, that even during their significant economic downturn, their high speed rail system continuted to expand.

dd

[Anonymous]

See "End of the Line" thread re: 1st world = airplanes, 3rd world = trains. I guess Japan is just another 3rd world country continuing to depend on railroads.
If they would just build more airports and highways they could acheive 1st world status.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Geographically, Japan is about the size of California and the population density is incredible. Also, keep in mind that there is a lot more to Japanese railroading than the high-speed lines. Japanese domestic airlines also have a lot of traffic, the Boeing 747SR (Short Range) was built for All Nippon Airways.

The 1st world vs 3rd world remarks are cheap shots, anyway.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Geographically, Japan is about the size of California and the population density is incredible. Also, keep in mind that there is a lot more to Japanese railroading than the high-speed lines. Japanese domestic airlines also have a lot of traffic, the Boeing 747SR (Short Range) was built for All Nippon Airways.

The 1st world vs 3rd world remarks are cheap shots, anyway.

I agree that the 1st world vs 3rd world remark is a cheap shot. Japan's geography and distance of travel are much more conducive to trains than to airplanes. Beside, they are not likely to ship bulk commodities via air any more than we do.

Fill in th blank with your favorite stupid nationality:

Did you hear about the _______ airliner that crashed? It ran out of coal.[;)]

[eastside]

As I said earlier, the Japanese government is an example of pork barrel gone berserk. As a result of all the government's debt and misguided economic policies to placate political interests, this what Japan got:

1. "The worst performance of any big economy in the last, half-century -- industrial production plummeted 20%..." -- The Economist. In the decade of the '90s Japan practically stood still and grew by about 10%. The US economy meanwhile grew by 35%.

2. As for the railroads contribution to mess, their annual losses continued growing year-on-year and by the late-1970s, had reached ¥1 trillion. They were generated both by the interest charges, as well as by operating losses from the freight sector, rural trunk and branch lines, and JNR bus and shipping operations. By 1987, the deficit totalled ¥25 trillion($70 billion), similar to the combined national debts of several developing countries.

The Japanese government is effectively broke, with a much greater debt level, as a percent of GNP than the US. Part of the reason for this was specifically the "privitization" of its railways in 1987 when (the railways became insolvent) the government assumed the current debt of ¥28 trillion, equivalent to approximately $2,000 for every man, woman, and child in Japan, or about 5% of the total national debt. That the railroads in the US could go bust and add 5% to the national debt would be just unimaginable. Here, on the other hand, they make money, pay dividends, provide jobs, and pay lots of US and local taxes. Most of all they're not a burden on the taxpayer.