Homeland Security proposes removal of hazmat placards

[dldance]

The following was reported on Yahoo from WTAE Pittsburg:

"A derailment kept people out of their homes for several days last month in East Deer Township.

"Team 4 has learned that the federal government wants to take away a crucial tool that helped firefighters respond -- a tool that the feds say could help terrorists.

"Firefighters say placards and other markings on the tank car let them know they were dealing with an extremely toxic chemical, but a proposal by the Department of Homeland Security would remove placards from trains carrying these types of chemicals. Local first responders say this could put communities at risk.

"Firefighters knew right away that they had a problem when the Norfolk Southern train derailed in East Deer last month. Not only did the tank car have a placard, it bore the name of the chemical -- anhydrous hydrogen flouride -- and an inhalation hazard warning."

[miniwyo]

STUPID HOMELAND SECURITY!!! It isnt enought that they have everyone scared, they gotta endanger us all, Especially our police, firefighters, and EMTs by not allowing an identification for a hazardous material. This is one step over the line. (more to come most likley)

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm not sure what to make of this idea. At a glance it may seem like a clever and almost reasonable thing to want to do, not let the bad guys know what is in the car. But in reality, it may be more harmful not letting the good guys know in the event of an accident. My opinion is it's just more paranoid nonsense, and homeland security is a real crock.

Trains make poor targets for terrorists, both from an economic, and casualty impact perspective. They may be easy targets, but they just aren't prime.

You know what I find odd? Since the election, all of the administration's scare tactics regarding terrorism have evaporated. It makes me wonder if 911 wasn't a successful covert CIA plan, to boost this president's popularity and give him something to do.

[Rick Gates]

If I remember the rhetoric after 9/11, it was said we will not give into the fear and paranoia tactics of terrorists. Since then we are more and more often succuming to them. This appears to me to be evidence that the terroists are acheiving their goals. Safety isn't first, it's fear. I too recieved a letter recently from Motor Vehicle Adim. stating that due to Homeland Security Act I will now have to pay a large fee and be fingerprinted and background checked to renew my Hazmat endorsement on my CDL. The list of disqualifications due to criminal background already disqualify me though there is no association to "terrorist" activity. This will cost me in my ability to make a living. It is happening to all of us in various ways. But to endanger innocent people by removing placards is absurd![V]

[Anonymous]

Really, really dumb idea.
I live near a military base. It's hard to disguise a miltary train as anything other than what it is... a train loaded with Abrams APC's.

Similarly, it's pretty darn hard to disguise the contents of a train when it's clearly marked DODX.

I remember photos taken of Iraqi insurgents plundering a military train of containers derailed after they had blown the rails up. They were happily showing off boxes of Purple Hearts.

The damage that is done by ANY train being blown off the rails can be limited by emergency personnel having a readily visible idea of what is on board. We shouldn't have to make a call to Homeland Security just to find out that the cargo is hazardous... and their past record in responding to local law enforcement (that much hated arm on some threads right now) is not timely enough to coordinate emergency responses.

Erik

[Anonymous]

HAW HAW HAW HAW. Homeland Security aint gonna do any good trying to remove placards.

It is the ONE thing keeping trucking and rail transport of hazmat safe and enforcable.

If there is a fire in my town on a vehicle without placards and it has HAZMAT on board people will die and there will be loss of life and property and possibly months of recovery.

You can have a tanker leave a known rocket fuel manufactor and be observed/tracked and probably hit by terrorist with a RPG off the side of the road. Placards or not it is my firm position that anyone with any tatical sense will be able to locate and track vehicles with certain loads that are dangerous to human life and property.

I am so

[V][censored][soapbox]

Over the entire concept of removal of placards. That is one of the things that holds the training and education of our First Responders, Fire, Rescue and Drivers as well as companies involved in the business of hauling hazmat

I can type until my fingers fall off ranting about this subject but let me say this one thing:

"Go ahead and pass laws removing placards. Then sit back and watch people die and things get broken and lives shattered forever" I for one will never sign such a peice of paper.

[edbenton]

High Iron you nailed it right on the head. W is not interested in security all he wants to do is turn this country into a police state. No trials guilty into proven innocent and while awaiting your trial you can be held without access to an attorney no bail and be watched over by some very nice people aka the FBI. Placards allow the first responders on scene to no what they are dealing with and how to combat if they brought the book with them. The DOT requirements on hazmat rqiure that thedriver have the bill of lading within arms reach at all times and if the driver is not in the seat then the BOL must be displayed in plain view. The fact that now you need to undergo a background check is distrubing though. The fact is all trucking companies already do a background check before they even hire a driver. [soapbox] Another onw of Wubba' s ideas to that mean to take away our freedoms.

[Anonymous]

Worst idea ever! (to be said like the comic book guy on the Simpson's)

[dekemd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

High Iron you nailed it right on the head. W is not interested in security all he wants to do is turn this country into a police state. No trials guilty into proven innocent and while awaiting your trial you can be held without access to an attorney no bail and be watched over by some very nice people aka the FBI. Placards allow the first responders on scene to no what they are dealing with and how to combat if they brought the book with them. The DOT requirements on hazmat rqiure that thedriver have the bill of lading within arms reach at all times and if the driver is not in the seat then the BOL must be displayed in plain view. The fact that now you need to undergo a background check is distrubing though. The fact is all trucking companies already do a background check before they even hire a driver. [soapbox] Another onw of Wubba' s ideas to that mean to take away our freedoms.

How do you know that this proposal came from the President?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dekemd

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

High Iron you nailed it right on the head. W is not interested in security all he wants to do is turn this country into a police state. No trials guilty into proven innocent and while awaiting your trial you can be held without access to an attorney no bail and be watched over by some very nice people aka the FBI. Placards allow the first responders on scene to no what they are dealing with and how to combat if they brought the book with them. The DOT requirements on hazmat rqiure that thedriver have the bill of lading within arms reach at all times and if the driver is not in the seat then the BOL must be displayed in plain view. The fact that now you need to undergo a background check is distrubing though. The fact is all trucking companies already do a background check before they even hire a driver. [soapbox] Another onw of Wubba' s ideas to that mean to take away our freedoms.

How do you know that this proposal came from the President?

Does it really matter which of his underlings said it? It is still just as stupid and just as as connected to the White House. Guilt by association.

[tree68]

Gee, I went to a hazmat awareness class given by CSX, and guess what? We learned what type of cargo is most likely in what type of car! Anybody worth their salt can tell an LP car from a corn syrup car... And the book they handed out in class was not marked with anything that indicated it was sensitive, security wise. I have no doubt that you can find all sorts of information about car types and cargos in any number of places on-line.

This is what happens when people who live in ivory towers set policy for people who really do the job.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

Gee, I went to a hazmat awareness class given by CSX, and guess what? We learned what type of cargo is most likely in what type of car! Anybody worth their salt can tell an LP car from a corn syrup car... And the book they handed out in class was not marked with anything that indicated it was sensitive, security wise. I have no doubt that you can find all sorts of information about car types and cargos in any number of places on-line.

This is what happens when people who live in ivory towers set policy for people who really do the job.

I actually happen to have one of those hazmat books. Mine is more than 10 years old, but they can't have changed that much. I got it when I got my hazmat endorsement on my CDL. Of course I no longer drive for a living, and my endorsement has expired, but just think of all the copies of that material out there.

It is impossible to put toothpaste back in the tube.

[BaltACD]

Homeland Security has been sniffing too many unplacarded containers of Hazmat. They are the object point of what happens when you don't know what you are sniffing.

[rtstasiak]

Dumb...and dangerous.

[chad thomas]

This has got to be the dumbest things "homeland STUPIDITY" has come up with !!!!!!!

[espeefoamer]

Homeland Security is replacing an imagined threat,that terrorists may target hazmat railcars, with a very real threat that fire,and other agencies won't know if there are hazardous materials in the cars in case of a derailment in a populated area.

[Anonymous]

Post 9/11 there were naive people in the government who actually wanted effective measures to protect homeland security. One of their proposals was to secure chemical plants so a terrorist with a truck and a bomb couldn’t cause another Bhopal.

The chemical industry needed but one meeting with Karl Rove and chemical plant security was dropped. Now we have a charade of homeland security targeted against those who don’t have the clout to call a meeting with Karl Rove, like firefighters and rail fans.

[morseman]

once again, I ask the question

are hazmat cards to be removed from trucks also ?
What about hazmat railroad cars and trucks operating in Canada,
are the to have their cards removed also

What about the hazmat cards on railroad cars and trucks operating
in Europe and around the world?

Is the rest of the world ignorant or more intellegent

These cards are United Nations authorized cards
Has Homeland Insecurite advised the United Nations
of their plans to remove these cards?

JUST WONDERING ////////

[Junctionfan]

That will do more harm than good. Emergency crews, switch crews and any other person that has a right to be around the railcar that requires the hazmat placards, needs to know what it is and know what precautions to take when in contact with the materials for whatever reason. If the homeland security wants to really protect against that kind of terrorism then require that industries have fences and gate around the siding for those kind of railcars and even have a camera monitoring them (most industries have that already). Have cameras in railyards or give tax breaks to railroads for the condition of them hiring extra railroad police to monitor and safe-guard against terrorism involving such cars.

In short of having police guard every couple of mile post, there is nothing really that can be done except keep a close eye on the boarders, properly fund intelligence agencies and keep the military strong and equiped particularly the coast guard. That's about as Fort Knox as they are going to get it.

[mikeyuhas]

Hey Guys,

I'll admit I'm not a fan of many of the tactics used by the Department of Homeland Anxiety, but this whole discussion seems a little fishy. I'd be indebted if someone could post a link to the actual proposal, if there really is one. That way we could all read the proposed regulation and make more rational arguments against it.

Thanks,
Mike

[JoeKoh]

not a good idea at all.
stay safe
Joe

[miniwyo]

This is for real, I looked this up realier and its right there.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/wmur/20050224/lo_wtae/2600436

"Homeland Security, Protecting America from Terrorists, by Killing us all."

I still think that they are retarded morons for proposing this idea. Like I said earlier,this country is too paranoid.

[dldance]

I did not take time to verify WTAE's sources but assumed that it would be reliable as it is the Pittsburgh ABC affiliate. An email to the author, Paul Van Osdol, in care of Team 4 Investigates should provide additional information. WTAE's website is ThePittsburghChannel.com

dd

[K. P. Harrier]

Here are a few links for evaluating this topic:

http://www.ble.org/pr/news/headline.asp?id=11646

http://www.utu.org/worksite/detail_news.cfm?ArticleID=16961

http://www.ntp.doe.gov/tec/draft_summary.html

[Anonymous]

Here is what the BMWE thinks about the removal of placards. I only quoted a portion of it, which I think contains the meat, as follows:

Freddie N. Simpson
Perry K. Geller, Sr.

President
Secretary-Treasurer

Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employes
20300 Civic Center Drive, Suite 320
Southfield, MI. 48076

September 29, 2004

Docket Management System
U.S. Department of Transportation
400 Seventh Street, SW
Nassif Building, Room PL-401
Washington, D.C . 20590

Re: Docket No. RSPA-2004-18730

Dear Sir or Madam:

The Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employes (BMWE), a rail labor
organization representing 50,000 railroad workers who build, maintain, inspect,
and repair railroad track and related structures throughout North America, is
pleased to provide these comments to the above referenced docket. BMWE has chosen to comment only on certain limited aspects of the "Notice and Request for Comments," however, such should not be construed as BMWE acquiescence to any other proposals or alternatives outlined in the Notice and Request for Comments...

...Placarding

BMWE does not support the removal of placards and markings as a security
measure. Simply removing placards and markings from TIH tank cars will in
itself be an identifier for those with malicious intent. These shipments will
simply be identified by the omission of placards and markings. In addition, it
will not be difficult for a person with malicious intent to figure out that
pressurized, non-placarded tank cars parked at a water treatment facility are
likely to contain chlorine. Therefore, BMWE does not view the removal of
placards as a viable security measure. Rather, we view the proposal for
removing placards and markings as a detriment to safety. As stated in the
Federal Register, August 16, 2004:

Placards provide initial warning information in the event of an emergency or
accident involving a shipment of hazardous materials. Placards provide
first-on-scene emergency responders with the information necessary to quickly
assess and accident situation from a distance, reducing the possibility of
someone approaching the accident site without wearing protective clothing or
equipment. Firefighters, police, and other responders can thus avoid
unnecessary exposure to dangerous, perhaps life-threatening material. In
addition, placards provide emergency response personnel with the information
necessary to determine whether there is a need to evacuate persons in the
vicinity of an accident.... In addition to providing critical information to
emergency response personnel, placards identify hazardous shipments for
transport workers and assure that they are handled safely and efficiently
throughout the transportation process." (Federal Register, August 16, 2004,
Volume 69, Number 157, page 50990)

I've got some strongs views on the subject of this administration's response to 911. However, this is a railfan board so I'll contain my comments to the above.

Seems kind of like common sense.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP 236

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mikeyuhas

Hey Guys,

I'll admit I'm not a fan of many of the tactics used by the Department of Homeland Anxiety, but this whole discussion seems a little fishy. I'd be indebted if someone could post a link to the actual proposal, if there really is one. That way we could all read the proposed regulation and make more rational arguments against it.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,

Its not fishy, its old news...Follow-up by Trains on this issue would be timely.

Jim - Lawton, NV MP 236

[edbenton]

Regargless of who what where the source is the fact that the Dept of Homeland Insecurity whats to remove placards is the stupidist idea I have ever heard come out of Washington. Little known fact that polystryene is also a placarded matrial it is on a 9 ORM placard. Those placards are there for public saftey if they succed in getting them removed the next time there is a wreck involing hazmat and people die. The lawyers should be allowed to sue the federal goverment and Geo W for allowing such a stupid idea pass.[soapbox][2c]

[tatans]

Does all this Homeland Security (real cute phrase) stuff sound vaguely like an incident in the 1940's when a lone Japanese submarine fired a couple of misplaced shells somewhere in a potato field in California and the entire nation went on alert thinking Japan was about to invade and completely overwhelm the United States, just think about it, was the fact , along with any other factual information that they were 8000miles away not brought to into play?

[Big_Boy_4005]

The new motto at Homeland Security: "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!!"

Maybe someone should park an unplacarded tank car on the White House lawn. That would get their attention. DUH!!![swg]

[Junctionfan]

Stencil it with "Liquified Brain Power-intelligence hazard"