Ohio Patriot Act

[cnw4001]

The Ohio Senate has under consideration a bill which would require you to show ID if requested while, among other things, watching trains.

Quoted from today's Columbus Dispatch story on Ohio Senate Bill 9.

"A person in or near an airport, train station, chemical plant, utility or ‘‘any other terrorist-sensitive site" to show identification when requested by law-enforcement or security personnel."

Dale

[tatans]

Is the second part of this statement "Ve haff ways of making you talk" ??? this sounds all to familiar does'nt it ??

[Anonymous]

Robin Williams suggested Iraq should have our Constitution because "we're not using it"

Remember the Bill of Rights? The 4th amendment outlaws "unreasonable search and seizure" and that includes searching a person without "probable cause" to think evidence of a crime is present.

Americans used to brag that in this country the government couldn't demand to see your identification papers. Currently a number of cases are in court trying to allow the government to stop you and demand your identification. If they can strip this protection from us, they will come back and use 9/11 as an excuse to search our cars and homes.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garyaiki

If they can strip this protection from us, they will come back and use 9/11 as an excuse to search our cars and homes.

they already can, under present laws, they can get a secret warrent, signed by a federal judge, and bug or search your property without you ever knowing they did. All they have to do is show a link to you and any crimminal orginization, and this all was signed into law by Billy Boy Clinton before he left.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SteamerFan


they already can, under present laws, they can get a secret warrent, signed by a federal judge, and bug or search your property without you ever knowing they did. All they have to do is show a link to you and any crimminal orginization, and this all was signed into law by Billy Boy Clinton before he left.

I vaguely remember reading about this. Demanding identification without probable cause was unconstitutional and still should be. But I can imagine a secret warrant sometimes is justifiable. I don't know if this law properly restricts secret warrants but it should.

This also brings up the weakening of the Freedom of Information Act. Once an investigation is closed we should be able to see what information the government collected on us. Government secrecy hides corruption, incompetence, and abuse.

[dharmon]

Exercise your rights! Contact your representative, have your friends and family contact theirs too. It's your constitution!

[M636C]

I'm not sure I should post to a thread with "patriot" in the title after recent events on a related forum.

In Australia, we don't have a bill of rights. We are basically guided by English "Common Law" as modified by legislation.

We do have a constitution, but I'm not sure that it addresses personal rights.

But the taking of rail photographs is getting harder in the cities.

Peter

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Exercise your rights! Contact your representative, have your friends and family contact theirs too. It's your constitution!

That's a nice thought Dan, but I think the fox is clearly in charge of the chickens.

As it turns out my congressman and one of my senators are firmly in the pocket of the White House, and have checked their brains at the door. They have no clue, nor do they care about what the voters have to say. They take their marching orders from W (who takes his from Carl Rove). The other senator (the good one) has just announced that he will not seek re election. Guess who wants his seat? My congressman!!!! I want to vomit!!!!!

Yes, the great state of Minnesota is full of characters, and although I didn't vote for him, I liked Jesse Ventura a lot better than either his predecessor or his successor. So, who is going to be running for senate against the congressman I so despise?

Al Franken!!!!

[:0][:D] I kid you not!!!!

By the way Steamer Fan, Clinton may have signed that bill, but the USA Patriot Act signed post 911goes much further to invade the privacy of individuals. It gives that secret court much more power. Be afraid, be very afraid.

[Rick Gates]

We must watch what we say here.....where we railfan.....train numbers and details.....they are taking notes on us taking notice. We could be charged with conspiracy! We are no longer Americans and railfans banning together and helping to do our civic duties. We must not trust anyone.....everyone is suspect. I don't have any problem with showing ID in these given circumstances however; with a criminal background associated with trains, railfanning could now get me locked up! I guess with all this hype, I will now have to railfan entirely by proxy. Trains Mag. and you. [soapbox]

[daveklepper]

Yet Bily Boy Clinton let 14 of the 15 11 Sept. '01 "perpertrators" (I don't like politically correct "miltants" and G_d forbid I should use the word "terrorist" since I am not anti-Arab per se) into the USA without consular review or security check, just pick up your visa at a Ryadh credit card office by showing a Saudi identity card. (They may not have even checked with the Saudis to see if the card was forged or not!) Think about in whose interest Billy Boy had the State Department put this scheme into action, think about who was responsible for what the terrorists did,and then complain to me about the Amtrak subsidy?

More seriously. I live in Jerusalem and I know what it is to make sure I have identification with me at all times.

If you visit, keep your American Passport with you at all times. Not carrying it can get you into real problems. And if you want to take pictures of trains here, check with either the police office area where you want to photograph or better yet the authorities next to the Arlazoroff Steet Central Railroad Station ("Mercaz") in Tel Aviv. You will get all the cooperation possible if you bring something like an NRHS or RRE or ERA card and tell them exactly what you want to do and why.

But then don't try to do something else!

[JoeKoh]

well were going to have to have a chat with our local reps.By the way one of them took our pic at the B&O caboose in deshler.
stay safe
Joe

[gabe]

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It is nice to see that personal agendas (on both sides of the issue) haven't gotten in the way of a rational interpretation of the act. If I see an officer approaching me while I am watching trains, I have my ID out before he even gets to me.

If that is what a constitutional-less society is like, I can live with it. Now, if told to leave public property for no apparent cause, that is another story . . . although no officer has yet told me to do that.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Just another way for the cops across this country to be more POWER HUNGRY!

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Just another way for the cops across this country to be more POWER HUNGRY!

No hidden agendas here.

[jeaton]

Big_Boy_4005.

I know how you feel about your reps. My congresman was at one time a spin Dr for Jack Kemp and Bill Barnett. I think he may have stopped working for them because they were too liberal.

Fortunately our Junior Senator is speaking up. He was the only Senator to vote against the Patriot Act, because he felt that it was far to great an attack on the Bill of Rights.

Jay

[BaltACD]

Personally....I want to see proper identification from those purporting to be law enforcement....there are too many want-to-be's floating around.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

Personally....I want to see proper identification from those purporting to be law enforcement....there are too many want-to-be's floating around.

Officers are required to properly identify themselves before taking action.

Gabe

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Jay, I'm just afraid that the 911 political back lash is going to be with us for a while.

Every time I go into my bank, I am disgusted to see a sign waving the USA Patriot Act in my face. Basicly it gives them permission to suspect everyone, and refuse to do business with anyone they don't like.

All of this security nonsense is going to create a real drag on our economy. Where once we had a balanced budget, we now have defecit spending in the name of security. We can't fund domestic programs including Amtrak, but we can spend a trillion dollars on Iraq, Afghanistan and tsunami relief. The average taxpayer in this country is really getting screwed. First his rights and freedom are being erroded out from under him, and then he is being financially squeezed right out of the picture by big business.

We need campaign finance reform in order for the voice of the individual to regain any meaning. Under the current system, only big business gets what it wants from the government, namely our money. Our elected officials use their office to line their pockets. To hell with the people.

Didn't Marie Antoinette say "let them eat cake"?

Our elected officials seem to have forgotten what happened to her.

WE NEED NEW BLOOD IN WASHINGTON!!!

[soapbox]Sorry for the rant guys.[soapbox]

[chad thomas]

If asked to show my i.d. I will comply. I will state what I am doing, watching trains. But If I am wrongly suspected of being up to no good, I only have 2 questions. Am I under arrest? And If so what are the charges? As simple as that. I learned this a long time ago the hard way.
As long as I'm not tresspasing, there is not much they can do (in theory). And if I am arrested it will all be setteled in the courtroom. I know this can be an expensive outcome, But I belive very strongly that it is my freedom that's being violated. And I refuse to go down without a fight.

I could go off on the stupidity of "homeland security" , but I'm not going to. If I did I would be typing all day , And would most likley offend a lot of poeple on this forum that I don't want to offend.

Power to the PEOPLE, not the government !!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chad thomas

If asked to show my i.d. I will comply. I will state what I am doing, watching trains. But If I am wrongly suspected of being up to no good, I only have 2 questions. Am I under arrest? And If so what are the charges? As simple as that. I learned this a long time ago the hard way.
As long as I'm not tresspasing, there is not much they can do (in theory). And if I am arrested it will all be setteled in the courtroom. I know this can be an expensive outcome, But I belive very strongly that it is my freedom that's being violated. And I refuse to go down without a fight.

I could go off on the stupidity of "homeland security" , but I'm not going to. If I did I would be typing all day , And would most likley offend a lot of poeple on this forum that I don't want to offend.

Power to the PEOPLE, not the government !!!!!!!

Your very last ststement is very true. But with the Government has a tendcy to way over do it. The government is not looking at going after the terror their to buisy going after the rights of every amercian in this country. It goes like this,**** on the terrorists where gona go and screw every americans rights. NO BULL ****,So much for being an ANERICAN!

[Anonymous]

It seems from the responses seen here that there is a general skepticism regarding the implimentation of the Patriot Act. It does make one wonder how George W. was re-elected if the opinions expressed in this forum reflect opinions generally in the country. It is a shame that 9/11 has somany people looking under their beds for terrorists. To be vigilant is one thing, to be paranoid is something else. I think paranoid is winning..much to Bush's advantage.

[bobwilcox]

QUOTE: Originally posted by stanley schurman

It seems from the responses seen here that there is a general skepticism regarding the implimentation of the Patriot Act. It does make one wonder how George W. was re-elected if the opinions expressed in this forum reflect opinions generally in the country. It is a shame that 9/11 has somany people looking under their beds for terrorists. To be vigilant is one thing, to be paranoid is something else. I think paranoid is winning..much to Bush's advantage.

One other good reason why our wars should be as short as possible. Pick a war, any war.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw4001

The Ohio Senate has under consideration a bill which would require you to show ID if requested while, among other things, watching trains.

Quoted from today's Columbus Dispatch story on Ohio Senate Bill 9.

"A person in or near an airport, train station, chemical plant, utility or ‘‘any other terrorist-sensitive site" to show identification when requested by law-enforcement or security personnel."

Dale

Ya try telling me something I already don't know!
It's a wounderfull country that we live in........paranoia tends to get to the best of us all in this country.
BNSFrailfan.

[zardoz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by stanley schurman

It seems from the responses seen here that there is a general skepticism regarding the implimentation of the Patriot Act. It does make one wonder how George W. was re-elected if the opinions expressed in this forum reflect opinions generally in the country. It is a shame that 9/11 has somany people looking under their beds for terrorists. To be vigilant is one thing, to be paranoid is something else. I think paranoid is winning..much to Bush's advantage.

To which paranoia are you refering? The paranoia about international terrorists, or the paranoia about the current administration? Myself, I'm much more worried about the latter, rather than the former.

"No matter how paranoid you are, you're not paranoid enough".

[railman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Exercise your rights! Contact your representative, have your friends and family contact theirs too. It's your constitution!

That's a nice thought Dan, but I think the fox is clearly in charge of the chickens.

As it turns out my congressman and one of my senators are firmly in the pocket of the White House, and have checked their brains at the door. They have no clue, nor do they care about what the voters have to say. They take their marching orders from W (who takes his from Carl Rove). The other senator (the good one) has just announced that he will not seek re election. Guess who wants his seat? My congressman!!!! I want to vomit!!!!!

Yes, the great state of Minnesota is full of characters, and although I didn't vote for him, I liked Jesse Ventura a lot better than either his predecessor or his successor. So, who is going to be running for senate against the congressman I so despise?

Al Franken!!!!

[:0][:D] I kid you not!!!!

By the way Steamer Fan, Clinton may have signed that bill, but the USA Patriot Act signed post 911goes much further to invade the privacy of individuals. It gives that secret court much more power. Be afraid, be very afraid.

So true, so true...from another Minnesotan.( and if I read between the lines correctly, the same congressional district.)



If the powers start demanding "papers" to be in public exercising your rights, (like taking pictures of trains in cites, or watching airplanes taking off and landing, or for that matter- watching traffic going by on an overpass, then we are in trouble.

[Anonymous]

I guess that Railfans had better start going to Birdwatching instead.
BNSFrailfan.

[spbed]

I worked with a guy that spoke Arabic whenever he made a personal call. Should he be reported under this law?

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

I guess that Railfans had better start going to Birdwatching instead.
BNSFrailfan.

Be careful if you spot a bald eagle - remember it's the national bird and watching it might be a prelude to doing something inappropriate.....[}:)]

[daveklepper]

I certainly would not report anyone for speaking Arabic or any other language. Most people of every culture are decent.

A friend and I were exiting the Mt. Zion Sephardic Synagogue, walking down the steps to the Valley of the Sultan's Pool to cross to the Windmill and the Hotel distirct. My friend spied a young man running down the slope, bypassing the steps. He asked, possibly he is a t_______st, and maybe we should call the Police?

I replied: Rediculous, he is obviously an hotel worker very late for work.

The Arabs run all the Kosher Hotels on Friday evening & Saturday because Jews aren't allowed by the Orthodox Rabbis to work if the Hotel is to retain is Kashrut certificate. The Bible says don't work on the Sabbath. Most tourists don't even know that the staff is entirely Muslim and Christian on the Sabbath! In Jerusalem that is.

And only the Arab buses run Friday nights and on Saturday until sundown.

And the railroad shuts down also.

But you can still get a non-Kosher taxi if you insist!

And charter a non-Kosher bus

[mudchicken]

This happened to us here in Colorado on Friday afternoon:

Went to locate a section corner (SE Cor Sec 11, those of you east of Ohio probably have never understood Section-Township-Range-Principal Meridians, but Thomas Jefferson had a good idea that stuck) and found it to be missing underneath a sidewalk,pole and fence built recently around a wastewater treatment plant (sewage treatment)....The railroad R/W we were setting boundary pins on required that a tie (distance and bearing) be made to the corner. While building this gawdawful fence, they wiped out the section corner.

There are recorded measurements to where the corner used to be. By law we have to re-establi***he destroyed section corner. The objects referenced fall inside the fence now by 15-20 feet and are now partially buried by landscaping. We go to a gate and guardhouse for the facility to ask permission to enter. The points we need to locate are within 200 feet and in clear view of the guard shack. Permission denied, we might be terrorists or newspaper people trying to break-in. We now have to go through the city's public relations office and wait 6 weeks to do 15 minutes of work behind the fence. Our truck was searched by the rent-a-cops while we asked permission.

The sewer plant destroyed a public survey monument to build a massive wall/fence to keep out terrorists (and pushy nosy newspaper people) and now won't allow a surveyor to do his publicly mandated duty without great inconvenience and cost to the taxpayer public..... Really dumb!

Railfans are not alone.

Mudchicken, Survey Terrorist[%-)][%-)][%-)]

(ps - better to be associated with terrorists than be associated with 'da yellow press!)[:(!][:(!][:(!]