Transcon railroads in Africa, Where is the World Bank when you need them?

[Anonymous]

Not since the days of Cecil Rhoads has a transcon Africa railroad been talked about. Africa is beset by civil wars and starvation. A standard gauge railroad might be the answer and would alow grain and food to be distributed to all points in Africa. If it were not for the Union Pacific here the United States would not be so united.
Of course a united Africa may not be in our best intrest since the West could no longer exploit them for our avantage.

[dharmon]

Yeah...we might no longer have a market for axes, machetes, and other pleasant means of affecting ethic cleansing. Not to mention it provide another way to restrict and control aid by local warlords to implement loyalty through starvation, and to place foreign "peacekeepers" on the continent to allow trains to safely run. It might even spawn a new growth industry, railtechnicals with automatic weapon equipped railcars to more effectively help them ease the suffering of neighboring tribes.

There's a couple of bigger issues that need to be addressed first.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

[Anonymous]

I'd like to see a good railroad map of Africa. I found these small maps




Lots of lines from the coast to the interior that look like they could be linked if there was reason to.

[Anonymous]

The reason for those line is so that Mulinationals can get raw materals from there mines to there ships and continue to bleed africa of its natural resorces.
A transcon system of railroads would lead to economic independece. Africa is rich in minaral and ag. resorces and could feed all its own people. A railroad could create economic inter-dependence among internal African nations.
That interdendence means that tribes and nations will be forced to make peace.
(Here in the US racism was a issue that thet even the UN said was a deal breaker)
The US and the CIA have a history of making sure that developing countrys(Chile,Indonesia,Panama ect.,ect.) are stuck in there 3rd world status so that American multinationals can have a monopoly on there power. A well built standerd gauge railroad is low in cost considering the terrain in Africa compared to a transcon highway system

[spbed]

With so many heads of governments over their having their fingers in the till any chance of unification or Transcon is just a dream since it is against the interest of the rulers if each country.

[gabe]

We were involved in Indonesia? Who knew? And to think I always blamed the Dutch for that one.

Speaking of windmills (i.e. the Dutch, work with me here)—and attacking them on horseback:

As far as Panama is concerned, I am not sure if they got the short end of the deal as far as foreign investment is concerned. You can certainly argue that we really put the screws to Columbia with the Panama Deal, but I fail to see how Panama itself was hurt.

I, too, am not too happy with our support of Pinochet; but, I don't think our support was at all aimed at stunting the development of Chile. In fact, you can argue our support of Pinochet helped develop Chile—the cost of that development is another matter.

So you want the World Bank to pony up? Where is your donation to this money pit?

Gabe

P.S. dharmon, you are practically a gieger counter. Very strong is the Force in you.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dunkirkeriestation

The reason for those line is so that Mulinationals can get raw materals from there mines to there ships and continue to bleed africa of its natural resorces.
A transcon system of railroads would lead to economic independece. Africa is rich in minaral and ag. resorces and could feed all its own people. A railroad could create economic inter-dependence among internal African nations.
That interdendence means that tribes and nations will be forced to make peace.
(Here in the US racism was a issue that thet even the UN said was a deal breaker)
The US and the CIA have a history of making sure that developing countrys(Chile,Indonesia,Panama ect.,ect.) are stuck in there 3rd world status so that American multinationals can have a monopoly on there power. A well built standerd gauge railroad is low in cost considering the terrain in Africa compared to a transcon highway system

Okay.....<he says wiping the tears from his eyes and coffee from mousepad>

A transcon is a good idea for Africa. Really......RailRwanda....the Hutu's and Tutsi's are always looking for ways to bond. The Kenyans will be just wild about the Somali's hopping on AFTRAK for a weekend in Mombasa. The Ethiopians and Egyptians are going to be lining the streets welcoming the Sudanese as they arrive on the City of Khartoum. And of course the Liberian Zephyr will be prime for more Charles Taylor wannabes to ride to Monrovia. There are quite a few issues to be resolved politically with regards to internal African ethnic politics before a serious consideration can be made to developing a cohesive rail system linking the continent. Not to mention a full time job for UN folks and contributing nations to provide security so every petty tribal dispute doesn't interupt the flow of natural resources from deeper Africa, now that a rail line provides access to it. The CIA is really gonna have its hands full then.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: We were involved in Indonesia? Who knew?

Estimated Numbers: Approx. 500,000 killed in Indonesia, 500,000 arrested; 200-300,000 killed in East Timor

After a failed coup blamed on the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI), the army retaliated against the PKI, killing an estimated 500,000 PKI supporters and arresting 500,000 others, mainly civilians. In 1967, Suharto became president of Indonesia, and with continued U.S. backing, was relentless in repressing communists until 1998. Indonesia invaded the island of east Timor in 1975, the day after a visit to Jakarta by President Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger visited Indonesia. Despite U.N. appeals, the subsequent occupation by Indonesia claimed over 200,000 lives, or 1/3 of the population.
from http://www.flashpoints.info/issue_briefings/Genocide/Genocide_main.htm

On a lighter note, how about a trans Indonesia railroad. [:D]

[chad thomas]

I think you might see a transcontinental built in Antarctica before Africa.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by garyaiki

QUOTE: We were involved in Indonesia? Who knew?

Estimated Numbers: Approx. 500,000 killed in Indonesia, 500,000 arrested; 200-300,000 killed in East Timor

After a failed coup blamed on the Indonesian Communist Party (PKI), the army retaliated against the PKI, killing an estimated 500,000 PKI supporters and arresting 500,000 others, mainly civilians. In 1967, Suharto became president of Indonesia, and with continued U.S. backing, was relentless in repressing communists until 1998. Indonesia invaded the island of east Timor in 1975, the day after a visit to Jakarta by President Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger visited Indonesia. Despite U.N. appeals, the subsequent occupation by Indonesia claimed over 200,000 lives, or 1/3 of the population.
from http://www.flashpoints.info/issue_briefings/Genocide/Genocide_main.htm

On a lighter note, how about a trans Indonesia railroad. [:D]

If that kind of backing is enough to constitute "involvement" we better add to his list, as I don't think there is a country we were not "involved" with in fighting communism. Given the inferences of his message as well as his other two examples, I thought he was referring to colonialism.

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Yes we were fighting "communism" but let us remember that just as there are Totalitarian dictaterships that use Comminsim as a label there are also dicataterships that use captalism as a label. Saudi Arabia is one of them and there human rights record is not that great despite US "Involvement. Oh yeah and who can forget the Shah of Iran fiasco. Robert Novak wrote about all the things that
are wrong with communism then said that capitalism is the best system without justifing or writing about why. There are abuses in both systems and therefore a healthy mix of socialism and the free market can work. Too much of one or the other and the men in the white coats will drag you off to the Gulag or the basement of the CATO institute for reducation depending on the circumstances.

[dharmon]

ANd exactly how much of the violence in Africa over the past ten years or so has been a result of US "involvement"

...Pardon me Roy...Is that the Kilamanjaro Choo Choo?/

[Anonymous]

Dharmon, you're funny. I love your posts!


m

[eastside]

I just don't see the economic case for an African transcon. If it's a matter of getting something from East to West coast, use a ship; it isn't too far, unlike the U.S.A. in the 19th century. If it's a matter of trade, that would require a region of stable political entities and economies. Instead central Africa has failed nations and populations riven by war, abject poverty, illiteracy, and AIDs. Despite massive loans from the U.S. government, an educated populace, a rapidly growing economy, a stable government, and trade, the U.P. was in constantly in financial difficulty or bankruptcy throughout the 19th century.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A look at the map shows that a fair number of the railroads in Africa were built to haul raw materials to tidewater. The only network of sorts is in South Africa and the former British possessions in southern and east Africa and that network is mostly 3'6" gauge..

Except for a few lines here and there, most of the existing railroads are 3'6" or meter gauge so a standard gauge railroad would cause interchange problems that Australians are quite familiar with.

[Anonymous]

The idea here is that improved infrastructure would improve trade and create a forced inter-dependence between african nations were going to war would be discouraged due to the economic consequences. A railroad would be able to tackle the diverse geographical terrain that roads can not do today

[Anonymous]

We cannot even get a rail line built from Alaska through Canada to the lower 48. And these two countries are the best of friends. Even have an undefended boarder between them. And you are considering a trans Africa rail line where each country hates their neighbors. I am sure that Edi Amin would really be in favor of this if he were still around.

[daveklepper]

Sitting here in Jerusalem looking at this computer screen I can dream of restoring Cairo to Istambul service, and Bush, Sharon, and Abbas seemed to be heading into a direction to make that possible but now Charac has become a spoiler with his saying that Hezbolla must be treated like a legitimate business in the ECA. This was one factor in the recent Tel Aviv incident, in my opinion. But I can still dream. And Israel railways putting down the third rail on the Jordanian's Akaba line to avoid the expense of a separate parralel line to Elat. Antonito, Colorado, reproduced in the Arava Desert, three-rail wye and all, about 20 miles east of current end of IR track at Oran.

[Anonymous]

Dave are you going to study talmud tonite? There was something on c-span about everyone studing talmud at the same time this week completing a cycle

[daveklepper]

I should be, but I decided to relax after a long day. Anyway, the cycle closes the book of Exodus the Sabbath, and I am pretty much up on the commentaries on the last part of Exodus (Shamot).

Most of what I am learning, I already did learn in English before I moved here. What is interesting is the different points of view of students here, their willingness to question their teachers and come up with unusual answers as far as motives, etc, of the Biblical characters and the Rabbis of the commentaries, and then my Hebrew comprehension improves by relating what I here to what I remember. The saying in the "Sayings of the Fathers" that young people learn like writing on a clean sheet of paper and old people like writing on paper already written on certainly applies to me. (I am 73.) But the kids like having me around and so do the teachers and my slow progress doesn't offend anybody. It is a very non-competitive help-each-other environment, and I like it.

[Anonymous]

Yeah around here it seems that theres is a one upsmanship about the torah and the talmund. The jury is still out on Chabad. They seem rather cultish in my opinion and in the opeion of my reform rabbi

[M636C]

I did like Dan's first posting!

The gauge situation, however, is even worse than it might first appear.

The North African countries largely use standard gauge, while South Africa and surrounding countries use 3'6". East Africa is largely metre gauge, particularly the former East African Railways in Kenya and Uganda. Tanzania was metre gauge, but the Chinese built Tanzania -Zambia "Tan -Zam" railway was built to 3'6" with an eye to connection through to South Africa. In West Africa there is a lot of metre gauge but there are some standard gauge lines, for mineral traffic in Liberia and the whole system in Gabon. Mauritania (which is almost North Africa) has a standard gauge line for mineral traffic.

But there are, as Dan points out, a few political problems to solve before the governments would agree to a line of any gauge, let alone be able to afford to build it.

At least Israel (and Palestine) and Egypt have the same standard gauge. I've mentioned elsewhere my father's photos of his wartime troop trains. One of the lesser known outcomes of the six day war was that the Israel Railways ended up with an EMD G8, (from Egypt) having only had G12s before the war! Is the swing bridge over the Suez Canal still in woking order?

Peter

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C



Is the swing bridge over the Suez Canal still in woking order?

Peter,

When I did the ditch in '98, I didn't recall seeing any bridges other than the one I standing on...but then again, at that point my concentration was elsewhere...

Dan

[M636C]

I forgot the Trans-Indonesian railway!

There would be some long undersea tunnels requiring electric traction.

Were you planning to include West Papua and West Timor?

Even connecting Java and Sumatra would be difficult. Not to mention Kalimantan up there in the North!

Much as I like to blame the CIA for unrest in various countries (some people suggest the CIA engineered a change of government in Australia in 1975) there seems to be quite a lot of evidence that the Indonesians can organise some pretty nasty unrest on their own without outside help from Al Qaeda or the CIA. Aceh was a bit that way while the buildings were still there.

Peter

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C



Is the swing bridge over the Suez Canal still in woking order?

Peter,

When I did the ditch in '98, I didn't recall seeing any bridges other than the one I standing on...but then again, at that point my concentration was elsewhere...

Dan

I was a bit slow in picking up on that one, Dan. Your lack of attention to rail related matters is understandable in those circumstances!

I would assume that Egypt restored some connections to Sinai when the Israelis returned that area. Perhaps they have tunnels now?

Peter

[dharmon]

I would presume they did, but much of the sides even then were still littered with junk. If I recall, it's something like 170 ft waterline to masthead, so it would have to have been a swing or drawbridge. But unless it was a distinct hazard, it probably didn't even register, since I couldn't see anything but sand to port anyway and not a great deal of water to starboard.