"Who ships by rail today? It's so archaic. It's limited to where that track goes."

[dldance]

Admittedly I took this quote out of context. It is from an article about a rail crossing dispute in Lee County FL - but it is symptomatic of the public relations problem that rail has today.

How would forum members suggest changing this common attitude?

dd

[edblysard]

Quit shipping coal to the city where the person said this lives...
One nice cold winter with no lights and heat, or having to pay to try and truck the coal to the power plant...and the archaic railroad would start to look quite modern...

Ed

[passengerfan]

And who says its limited by where the track goes. We have a large domestic container business traveling by rail and how about those truck trailers traveling everywhere by train. And the previous writer who responded about the coal traveling to the power plants. I don't see many trucks hauling grain long distance to the ports for overseas shipment. This is almost the exclusive domain of the railroads. Their are not as many freight consolidators as their once were but those still in the business would disagree with the statement about who ships by rail. This is still a very important part of the nations transportation network and I expect will be for years to come.The new regulations regarding hours of service for truckers will certainly over the next five years bring more and more of that type business back to the rails including I suspect some of the long lost perishable business.

[tree68]

The attitude has to be laid in part to the shift away from carload traffic. Used to be you could see the interface between the RR and the public - a car on the team track, a hopper or two at the local coal dealer, boxcars full of lumber at the lumber yard, you name it. Even your Christmas present from Aunt Harriet could be seen as coming via rail on REA.

The public today doesn't see that interface. The item you bought today at HugeMart passed in front of you at the crossing the other day, but you couldn't see it inside the container. Your present from Aunt Harriet (bless her soul for still sending you one at her age) came by rail - in a package service trailer.

Re-training the public (pun intended) won't be easy. Shippers see no reason to advertise that they ship by rail - such an ad makes no money for them. We've discussed the railroads' advertising and why they do so little.

People still refer to trains as "choo choo" even though they haven't "choo choo'd" in years. Model railroaders and railfans celebrate - steam. (I know, I run 'diesels' on my model RR, too) Trains are passe - old technology. It's gonna be hard to change that image and mindset.

[edbenton]

I know for a Fact the Coors brewary in Memphis TN recives all of there water via train in tank cars the recive on avarage 35 a day. The reason I know this is I used to haul the finished product out of there and while waiting to load would see the BNSF bring cuts of tankers marked CORX into the brewary. One time I asked the train crew what was in those same cars and was told all it is is rocky mountain spring water.

[Modelcar]

...My opinion of the above statement "Who ships by rail today"....is really real in the public's mind...even goes beyond that...Probably could say..."Who runs trains anymore"....I for one don't know how one would fix that perception but I am one who thinks it would be benificial to overall rail business...if it was "fixed"....I don't have the answer but that's just my opinion.
Actually the rails probably ship more tonnage today than they did in their "heyday"...Don't have the facts in front of me at the moment but that's my thought...

[mudchicken]

dd:

(1) The circle jerks in Lee County made that ludicrous statement to support their own narrow minded attempt to cut service to a shipper so they could improve a street crossing without paying to replace a railroad crossing and related signaling. (Mookie can point you to some fellow near-sighted boobs that need removed from the gene pool.)
(2) Many industries keep rail sidings for the sole purpose of negotiating rates with the truckers (rail service as a rate alternative bargaining chip). After years of no service, the railroads remove the track & switches they own to decrease tax and maintenance costs. The industry starts to whine to the local PUC or the STB and then finds out that the railroad was justified and they were just plain stupid.

(3) Every time the diesel fuel prices jump appreciably, rail service suddenly looks VERY attractive. (Silver lining for me every time I have to pay more at the pumps)[X-)][X-)][X-)]

[oltmannd]

I friend of mine once said that RRs were becoming like water and sewer systems. Nobody has a clue about how they work or that they're even there until they break.

RRs have just faded from public view over the past 100 years.

[dehusman]

I did a presentation for my kids elementary classes. I showed them slides about the RR history and then asked them if they or their parents ever used RR's. I then showed them pictures of fast food chain french fries, soda, automobiles, a light switch, and a Nintendo game system and then showed them the RR cars that haul the frozen spuds, a corn syrup tank, a tri-level, a coal car and a stack car, so they know they use RR's in an indirect way.

Dave H.

[Modelcar]

....That sounds like a good approach to enlighten the next generation of workers and managers that the RR's are still here to do the job...

[Anonymous]

At a meat plant in Liberal Kansas I have to negotiate a forest of railcars. In some areas of Baltimore I have to compete with the Canton Railroad serving the same industry I would be loading or delivering to.

At a newspaper plant I walked across a boxcar waiting to be loaded INSIDE the building before I realized it, have to be careful about those things.

I used to haul stone (gravel) out of a rail served plant. IF you did not have this facility.. the entire regional economy on which concrete and apshalt was based on would not exist.

Need another 19 ton of stone please.

You can bet that man is also calling for sand to go with that stone at any ready mix plant. They had sand too by rail.

Here in Arkansas they quarry the rock and sand. Most of it is trucked but anything out of state probably goes by rail.

Dont forget the salt. That table salt out of New York State is probably by rail on the Genesee.

Seems like everywhere a train goes a trucker trips over the rails.

It may not have been touched by a railroad but wherever you live you can bet a trucker brought it to you.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dldance

Admittedly I took this quote out of context. It is from an article about a rail crossing dispute in Lee County FL - but it is symptomatic of the public relations problem that rail has today.

How would forum members suggest changing this common attitude?

I just had a similar thing said to me by a person I work with the other day. I explained to them how much money they have spent in the L.A., CA Port for ship to rail cargo movement, and how huge that is. They seemed genuinely surprised.

The majority of people in the US have absolutely no idea how anything works. They live in ignorant bliss, knowing nothing about how they get electricity, water, gas, food, clothing... All they know is they turn on a light and it works, and if they need something, they go to the store and buy it. I'm not sure how you would change that, unless you tie people down and force them to watch the Discovery channel for two hours a day. :-) Then of course you have kids who actually admire and emulate people like Paris Hilton, who doesn't even know what Walmart or a Funeral Home is... Scary.

Dave
-DPD Productions - Home of the TrainTenna RR Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/dpdp/

[dldance]

Seems to me that the upside of a railroad PR campaign that emphasized how rail moves much of what we consume would be local support for railroads instead of the uninformed bad mouthing that is becoming so common. That support translates into local support of railroad improvement projects (such as the cross in Florida).

dd

[Anonymous]

Diesel trucks fry too much. That's why trucks go up a runaway on a steep
downgrade. Diesel trains DONT have that problem! "And this is comming from a
steam fan ! "

[Anonymous]

I know I've stood on the soap box a few times and given the coal & electricity speech.

I think the RRs should do more tv spots and ad campaigns that focus on how the fit in to the economy. UP and NS seem to have stated down the right path, but there is no follow throughas of yet. I can see it now: "BNSF, we don't make the things you buy, we deliver what they're made of!"

dehusman is on the right track (no pun intended)!

[eolafan]

Last time I looked, eighteen wheel trucks can't go accross deserts, mountains, rivers, etc. without roads, so where is the difference...tracks, good roads, no difference. We need both railroads and truck lines with the proper use of each in a balance.

[Junctionfan]

That statement tells me several things about this person or persons.

1/ They know jack $%#$ about anything having to do with rail for starters.

2/ They are using rail as a scape-goat for their own agenda and not considering others. A typical selfish response from someone who obviously has nothing better to do than complain and engage in negative smearing likely.

3/ They are probably stupid and don't are are incapable of using logic. Any intelligent person who has read studies or for that matter looked at the roads can tell you that trucks cause increase wear on the roads and so having a rail user will reduce costs to the taxpayer. It is also more space efficient to have a single track line go through town then a double or quadruple lane road for truck use. It is even better because unlike a road, the rail upkeep is up to the railroad and not average Joe-taxpayer. The more roads you have and more trucks using existing road, add to maintainance cost and also decrease amount of land available for development.

4/ Trucks are archaic, they only carry one or two loads per 28 to 57 feet in length. The only reason why they exist still is because sometimes they are cheaper, easier and quicker then rail but not always. They certainly don't do wonders for industries that requires large quantities or bulk commodities either for importing or exporting.

I wi***he government would undertake in a rail awearness program for basic understanding of the railroad. They do it for safety (Operation Lifesaver) why don't they do so people would be more educated and informed about the benefits of a railroad?

[Anonymous]

Are others seeing a big decline in piggyback service lately?

I use to see a lot of piggyback trailers on an intermodal train (CN mainline from Toronto to Port Huron/ USA).
I can not recall the last time I saw any piggybacks. There use to be a few Triple Crown trains, but that has come and gone, and this forum has already discussed that issue.

I agree with a previous comment made here, that as driver hours get reduced, it may boost the piggyback service.

[adrianspeeder]

To quote my favorite line "dat boya might be retaarded"

Adrianspeeder

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eolafan

Last time I looked, eighteen wheel trucks can't go accross deserts, mountains, rivers, etc. without roads, so where is the difference...tracks, good roads, no difference. We need both railroads and truck lines with the proper use of each in a balance.

Wanna bet?? A big old Diamond Reo with the walking beams probably is capable of getting to the logging road with a load where there aint no roads.

You need to consider ground pressure per inch and the solidity of the ground.

I have gone off road many times in a 18 wheeler. Thank god for the ground clearence and the really low gear ratios (and dry weather too)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mac 4884

Diesel trucks fry too much. That's why trucks go up a runaway on a steep
downgrade. Diesel trains DONT have that problem! "And this is comming from a
steam fan ! "

This is usually due to a braking problem. Today's trucks properly maintained and driven by TRAINED drivers 9 times of 10 will make it down the hill regardless of the weather or conditions. It is the 1 truck that suffers a failure thru any number of causes that needs rescue by "runaway ramp". The causes range from poor heat management, poor use of brakes, improper speed etc etc etc.

Go to cajon pass and look at the railroad struggling to the top. If a coupler failed or something went wrong those cars will run away to downtown LA. No one wants that.

ALL trains or trucks respect down grades of any kind. To do down one correctly means to live and deliver the goods safely.

There is no shame in using these ramps. That means to live and see your family again. Not to use these ramps means to die.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

I know for a Fact the Coors brewary in Memphis TN recives all of there water via train in tank cars the recive on avarage 35 a day. The reason I know this is I used to haul the finished product out of there and while waiting to load would see the BNSF bring cuts of tankers marked CORX into the brewary. One time I asked the train crew what was in those same cars and was told all it is is rocky mountain spring water.

Ed, what is in those tanks is Wart. What exactly Wart is I cannot say more than "unfinished" beer. Was praying for a leaker in the yard until the yardmaster broke the news to me. Oh well.

[Anonymous]

Highiron, you wrote "if a coupler failed, the cars would end up down in L.A." I've been on the Cajon pass. They would end up in San Bernadino.....hehehe. But seriousely, if a drawbar/knuckle broke, the cars would go into emergency and stop. I live at the bottom of two grades traversed by quite a few trucks and nearly every time that I get out on the road, there are at least one truck or more stopped with smoke billowing off of the wheel area. Too common! We just had a runaway a few days ago and they are not uncommon.
As far as effeciency goes, trains have trucks beat hands down. Consider horsepower per ton. A figure that is very important to the RR. We often run as little as 1 HPT on the flatter runs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, aren't the newer semis pushing 500 hp? and hauling around 50 tons? If so that equates to 10 hpt to move that freight. Our most powered up trains on steep grades rarely use even half of that. Food for thought.

[greyhounds]

Well, it's pretty much only 40 tons gross vehicle weight for a semi. Although there are exceptions. And that weight has to be distributed just so. 17 tons on each tandem axle. 6 tons on the steering axle. They're illegal if they've got 19 tons on one tandem even if the GVW is under 40 tons.

In the late 80's when I was with Navistar we rarely produced a highway tractor with more than 350 HP. I was very suprised to see that the engine HP in highway tractors had increased given the increased emphasis on fuel economy.

What's "driving" that, I'm told, is that the higher horsepower truck engines require less work on the drivers' part. They don't have to work the clutch and shifter as much. Retaining good drivers has long been a problem for trucking companies. Unless you like to be away from your family and like to live in the back of a truck the job has its drawbacks.

Making a driver's job easier with a more powerful engine is one way to keep the good drivers around.

[Anonymous]

ironken, what grade are you near where so many truckers are smoking? I recall back in the days before jakebrakes were bought by companies willing to invest in safety I would smoke em now and again... but there should not be that many smokers.

You are correct about the emergency stop on the cars. I was dramatizing a bit to make a point. Stand on summit by the interstate and look down cajon's twisting and winding path and it seems like LA is "right there" but I think about 15 miles or more away but not sure.

Owner operaters will buy 500+ horses for rigs. The majority of the trucks such as JB Hunt or Swift *COUGH KAFF COUGH** excuse me.. they usually run detroits or cummins rated between 320-470 at the most. 350-430 is about the best HP versus fuel consumption and about as much money fleet managers want to pay for units.

I recall the old mack 280's that you could wind out all day at 90+ mph and it did not matter what horses you had back then. No siree..

50 ton is too heavy. 40 is the limit. A Cummins M11 rated at 320 HP moving 40 ton is not that great. It's the "pull" on hills like Cajon that gives us the speed. If that rig was able to run cajon at about 18 mph and I had a Detroit 470 HP and run that same load at about 32 mph and perhaps slightly better fuel usage.

Railroads simply add units until they have enough to meet the tonnage and then pray that none of the units go down. We drivers just want to be rolling with enough horses to make a difference.

Nothing is worse than a engine governed at 58 mph where in the top gear is just at or below max torque and downshifting to gain horsepower to the next lower gear only drops you to about 53 mph and no room at the governer to be worth a damn.

Now If I wanted to get some what simpler with autos I had a 3700 pound car with a 350 HP v8 a friend of mine had a 3200 pound car with a supercharged v6 his numbers are very close to mine.

Ultimately there is nothing that matches the top dogs. My little bitty car got blown away by a huge hogging Buick Lesabre 4 door with the 500 ci V8 with so much S**T that is just glided away from me no matter what I did.

It is my understanding that railroads are very "tight fisted" with horsepower as a means to get the tonnage over the pass or division and hope that none of the units go down. If it was me I would give the engineer twice as much HP and let him have at it. Then again my railroad will be broke and out of business by the end of the year.

[greyhounds]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

At a meat plant in Liberal Kansas I have to negotiate a forest of railcars.

It may not have been touched by a railroad but wherever you live you can bet a trucker brought it to you.

Can't argue with the last sentence HighIron.

Do you fee comfortable talking about those meat loads out of Liberal? East coast or west coast? What was the transit time by truck. You probably didn't get a load back to Liberal. Where did you load to on the return trip? What kind of freight would you haul on the return? I'd guess pulling out of Farmland, you were an owner operator. Do you know what the truck charges were for delivery on either, or both, coasts?

The movement of freight is facinating to me. I know the railroad end of things. I'd like to learn more about trucking. You seem to be someone who could educate me.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

Originally posted by mac 4884

Diesel trucks fry too much. That's why trucks go up a runaway on a steep
downgrade. Diesel trains DONT have that problem! "And this is comming from a
steam fan ! "

So, we are all jetting off Donnr Pass's I-80, watching them bulid these ramps, talking on the two-way (CB) about this stupid waste of money...As if the state of California buys our chat, It takes the state two years to spec the rock and purchase it for these run-away ramps! WHAT a joke.

I used to joke to many, Donner Pass's I-80 was the only highway in America that a driver could do by numbered signs...sort of like paint by number!

Jim - Lawton, NV

...A TEAMSTER

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