Oxnard smashup

[Anonymous]

I might as well start the thread...
TV news shows are awash in great footage of an Amtrak California train at speed plowing through a truck trailer at a grade crossing in Oxnard. I say great footage, because it was shot from two camera angles, by somebody who, quite correctly, thought this crossing was an accident waiting to happen.
It's at a street intersection with a traffic light just the other side of the tracks. Traffic at a red light is all too likely to be sitting across the tracks. As the clip opens, there's the truck with the trailer stuck between the train gates. I have not yet been able to tell whether the gates try to come down.
A few seconds into it, the Amtrak train comes through at quite a clip. My guess is at least 50 mph. The trailer disintegrates.
The driver was not injured, though apparently some minor injuries aboard the train. The load, we are told, was strawberries. It could as easily have been gasoline.
On the face of it, it looks like terrible highway design, coupled with truck driver error. And it will be a shame if the result is a call for greater RAIL safety. But let's analyze away...

Larry

[mudchicken]

Saw it - the first time you see it it's "what the?"...

(1) Agree with you - poor traffic design. Pre-emption clearly did not work....

(2) Was the trucker oblivious to the fact he had a trailer behind him and the signals were clearly working.. Lights on - nobody home?

[nslakediv]

Could you have imagined a tanker of fuel, would of been like the train in mexico I seen on one of those video shows, the explosion was massive. Driver might of been suffering from road buzz. I drove over the road for years and it does happen. Good drivers know when it's nap time though.

[vsmith]

Heres a link to the VIDEO!! all I can say is that this truckdriver was a Numbskull!!! If he was caught on the tracks as the lights came on he should have just continued to drive his truck though the intersection...

http://cbs2.com/topstories/topstories_story_048081949.html

[tatans]

Wasn't guy filming the accident there because he got a ticket for some reason and wanted to prove his case(obviously,he did) I think he went around the drop arms to get off the tracks, anyone have the exact facts.

[Anonymous]

I saw this video for the first time.

1- Driver deliberate, willful disregard of bells, signals and lights.
2- Poor professional judgement clouded by that green light.
3- failure to stop short of the mandated white line (between 50-15 feet of crossing) usually well clear of the gates.
4- jerking the clutch at a attempt to get the truck rolling quckly disregarding the sounds of gate damage hitting the cab and plowing thru wanton neglect.

My judgement is that the driver be made to be finacially liable for all damage, injuries to the people on the train, damage to the train and loss of the cargo and tractor trailer and all associated expenses in clean up (luckily the fuel tanks on the tractor did not get hit)

I dont know of any charges that apply here but I think this individual will be in our legal system for some time to come. If this was a owner operator then the business is probably finsihed. If this was a company driver then the company just lost a great deal of money and is facing increased charges and associated problems that are required of everyone involved in a commerical vehicle accident.

Finally that traffic light should be interlocked with the railroad so that they STAY red when the gates are down.

I am sorry that this has happened but I feel no compassion towards the driver involved. He should have known better. You may argue road buzz, fatique or other problems that clouded his judgement but I would let the courts decide that.

I should say kudos to the camera person who apparently was trying to say that this light is unsafe. I agree because the signals for that road on the crossing does not STAY RED while the gate equiptment is in operation.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tatans

Wasn't guy filming the accident there because he got a ticket for some reason and wanted to prove his case(obviously,he did) I think he went around the drop arms to get off the tracks, anyone have the exact facts.

Actually the newsman makes mention fo why the guy was doing the filming, during the audio portion of the clip in the link above. He was trying to prove that the traffic light cycle time was too short to for vehicles to clear the tracks. He made his point in spades.

Whether he was involved in an incident at this crossing previously, is unclear, but it would make sense, and provide motivation.

[Anonymous]

My previous post regarding the trucker's failure to obey signals needs to be softened a bit. I dont think the driver was able to see the red signals on his right or the gate above him coming down.

Assuming amtrack was blowing the horn for the roadway the other cars stayed put so it's possible that everyone heard the horn blowing by the oncoming train.

As for the camera man who took the videos from what obviously was tripods or fixed postions at the intersection using probably 2 cameras or two people I am sure they will be asking questions. Hard questions.

I for one will be interested in how this whole thing gets settled.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

I saw this video for the first time.

1- Driver deliberate, willful disregard of bells, signals and lights.
2- Poor professional judgement clouded by that green light.
3- failure to stop short of the mandated white line (between 50-15 feet of crossing) usually well clear of the gates.
4- jerking the clutch at a attempt to get the truck rolling quckly disregarding the sounds of gate damage hitting the cab and plowing thru wanton neglect.

My judgement is that the driver be made to be finacially liable for all damage, injuries to the people on the train, damage to the train and loss of the cargo and tractor trailer and all associated expenses in clean up (luckily the fuel tanks on the tractor did not get hit)

I dont know of any charges that apply here but I think this individual will be in our legal system for some time to come. If this was a owner operator then the business is probably finsihed. If this was a company driver then the company just lost a great deal of money and is facing increased charges and associated problems that are required of everyone involved in a commerical vehicle accident.

Finally that traffic light should be interlocked with the railroad so that they STAY red when the gates are down.

I am sorry that this has happened but I feel no compassion towards the driver involved. He should have known better. You may argue road buzz, fatique or other problems that clouded his judgement but I would let the courts decide that.

I should say kudos to the camera person who apparently was trying to say that this light is unsafe. I agree because the signals for that road on the crossing does not STAY RED while the gate equiptment is in operation.

I'm not trying to defend the truck driver here, but it is clear in the video take from behind, that he was already on the tracks and beyond the signal when it activated. His first indication that he had a problem may have been the "THUNK" on the roof of his cab. He had only two choices, forward or backward. Behind him a line of cars, and in front of him a red light and cross traffic.

He probably had made the required stop in advance of the signal, but either misjudged the speed of the train, or perhaps could not see it coming around a curve. It had to be doing 50 MPH. As I watched the video for the fifth time, I counted about 13 seconds from the time the gate activated, until the impact. That would seem to be ample time to clear the tracks, unless one is facing a red light, in which case a real dilema is posed. The signals, both crossing and road, are supposed to be coordinated in such a way that this situation does not arrise, the point which the videographer was trying to prove.

[arbfbe]

Rule #1:

Never, never, never stop on the railroad tracks for any reason.
Do not attempt to cross the tracks until you are sure there is enough room on the otherside for you to clear if you have to stop.

This should be in every drivers' license manual and emphasized in all drivers' ed class but I'll bet it is not even mentioned. The danger zone for a railroad is pretty well delineated by the edge of the ballast and crossing gates. Stay out of there and your chance of avoiding injury from a train is almost 100%. I hope the photographer donates the rights to his images to Operation Lifesaver and every state for education of drivers.

Alan

[chad thomas]

arbfbe,
I could not have said it better myself.

[Anonymous]

I for one would like to see this video played in every trucking school and safety meeting.

Big_Boy_4005 I am aware of the "damned if you do and damned if you dont" and the outcome is set. It cannot be changed. There was not enough time between the light in front the gate above and the traffic behind and the train blasting at you from the left side.

I suspect the driver may have had "sensory overload" and probably decided that his number was up and prayed that it would not hurt too much.

I noticed that everyone in the traffic was right up against the tracks themselves. It is almost like "closest firstest" theory that the closer you are to a crossing some how the faster you will get across. The truck went into motion the instant the light turned green.

You pointed out that the truck may have been too close to the rails and I agree, not being able to see exactly where that white bar on the road is I cannot decide if indeed he was too close to the rails.

One of the things in trucking school they hammer into students is the ability to place the front bumper of a 18 wheeler within 1 foot of a designated white line. There are things you can look for to achieve that objective as well as mirrors that will show the driver his own license plate and everything in front.

I also think that he may have been feeling "rushed" as the cargo of 150 or so 1 gallon containers of jelly hardly makes up two pallets of cargo he probably had multipule pickups to make before he was able to finish getting loaded that can have a great driving impact on a driver who is "driven" to meet deadlines.

A 13,000 pound trailer attached to a 12,500 pound tractor (I forget the exact tares so give or take a little) will provide a good hit to the train. But I throw out the coupler problem because I have seen images of train wrecks where freight cars stayed coupled but folded like a book.

I am thankful it was not fully loaded to 40 ton. It certainly will have derailed the train and sent the passenger coaches flying in a very very bad wreck. As it was the engine was able to "slice" right thru the trailer as if ripping a telephone book. The trailer is really nothing more than a skeleton steel or aluminum underframe with wood floor and foam sides with a metal over wrap The first 10 feet of the trailer is pretty important as it is nothing but metal plate for the 5th wheel on the tractor.

"Slice!" so that is one positive thing in the accident minimal resistance.

I am betting by the position of the truck very close to the tracks that this is what is happening.

I think we will learn a little something more every day as this month progresses but I tell ya... when there is a accident it can be a doozy!
Good Luck!

[dharmon]

Well, after watching the clip a few times (and I wi***hey had left a few seconds more in at the beginning) .... It would appear in my observations that:

1. The truck had pulled to far up on the crossing to begin with.
2. He didn't start moving until the gates were well on the way down (but a few seconds of earlier tape would show how long the lights were flashing before hand....as apparently everyone else noticed them.)
3. The street lights may or may not be tied to the RR crossing. I don't know how many are, but it would appear that if they are, it's timed to give traffic on the crossing time to clear the intersection (not to try and beat the gates)
4. Although somehow, someone other than the trucker will get blamed, it was the truck driver's fault.

[wcfan4ever]

Anybody want some strawberry jam?[:D] From what I heard, there were six injuries on board. Glad it didnt derail!

[CShaveRR]

We have a crossing by a signalled intersection near here that was recently rebuilt. It has well-marked areas which are meant to be left clear when the traffic light is red; flashing yellow signals at the railroad crossing whenever the light isn't green to alert drivers to keep the crossing clear; and the distance between railroad crossing and intersection stop-line is posted on the street where the track comes closer to the intersection (the railroad cuts across both streets diagonally). For this crossing, there's a traffic light to stop traffic short of the gates; the light at the intersection itself always turns red after this one does. The intersection's lights allow vehicles to clear the intersection in directions away from the tracks after the gates are lowered (they'd have to do this for one street at a time, and I haven't been close enough to see how this actually takes place).

There was a train-truck collision here several years ago (again, the only injuries were to people in adjacent vehicles); this is what precipitated the distance signs. I can't think of any ways they could make this intersection/crossing safer (other than separating the grade), but I'm afraid that someone will find a way to get his vehicle pulverized anyway.

[Anonymous]

In Westminster Maryland in the center of town at routes 27 and main street (I forget excatly the name of that street as 3 streets result from this west to east street)

There is a rail crossing that cuts DIAGONALLY across the intersection from the NE to the SW and continues on to New Winsdor. A train goes thru twice a day I think in the morning and again in the evening. These aint small trains either. Maryland Midland brings in Cement thru and other commodities as needed by that part of the region.

When the train hits the protected area of the crossing ALL of the lights for ALL traffic turns red and STAYS red until the last railroad car is off the intersection.

This is why I feel strongly about that light changing while the crossing gates in the accident video was being activated. That traffic light should display RED for the traffic at the crossing and also for the on coming traffic and also. against the turning traffic favoring the crossing. Basically no one should move unless they are NOT going to hit that road with the crossing.

It is quite possible that the lawyers for the trucker and his company (One and same in cases of incorperated owner operators) will argue that the Administration responsible for the design and timing has endangered the lives and property by failing to ensure that a "interlocking" for the signals is emplaced on that traffic signal.

That to me is the root cause. The traffic light turning green, the rest of the stuff about being too close to the tracks I guess is enforceable but the rig has been moving some distance before that crossing gate actually thumped onto the cab (Probably provoked a HUNH? in the driver's mind)

[Anonymous]

the thing is, it has to turn green, otherwise people who parked on the tracks would get whacked because the cars in front of them didn't move. In theory, you are correct, but you have to take the idiot factor, and reduce chances of injury, and the only way to do that would be to have a green light.
Brad

[edblysard]

Everything discussed so far is all good...
But what part of
Never, ever stop your vehicle on the railroad tracks!
is too hard to understand.

You cant tell me the driver didnt hear the train...the pick up truck behind the rig didnt move a inch, bet he heard the train!

If he had stopped back where he was supposed to, he would have seen the lights and arms start down...but it looked like he was in a hurry.

With out the lay out of the tracks, we cant be sure he could see down the line, but I would bet he has been across that paticular intersection often, and knew it was a short light with a train in the circut.

Bet if he didnt believe before, he's got religion now!

ed

[Anonymous]

You think amtrak's bad, the metrolink had 2 accidents in a row, both in glendale
1 cornfield meet, & the other one hit a jeep, went out of control, & ran into a UP
freighter, which derailed, spun around, & flew into an oncoming metrolink train.
OUCH ! (This is true)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mac 4884

You think amtrak's bad, the metrolink had 2 accidents in a row, both in glendale
1 cornfield meet, & the other one hit a jeep, went out of control, & ran into a UP
freighter, which derailed, spun around, & flew into an oncoming metrolink train.
OUCH ! (This is true)

Amtrack is not to blame during this accident. If the engineer followed the rules then there is no blame against amtrack in this particular accident.

By the way did anyone notice how fast the Decel rate was on that train after impact? That big blow must really clamp some serious braking on the rails. I bet you some folks who may have been walking might have been thrown off the feet.

[Anonymous]

The whole incident is interesting because the camera tells us a lot -- but it never tells us everything. (Think Rodney King.) What was going on a few seconds before what we see in this clip? What might have been going on to the left of the picture, or in front of the truck where we can't see? Does the truck driver have a clear view in the direction the train comes from, or is there a sharp curve or something that would hide the train?
(Don't get me wrong -- I'm very much in the camp of "don't never stop on tracks no how, no matter what.")
I'd really love to see this incident taken apart the same way an airliner accident is. And I would really like to know how the driver, and his company if he works for one, winds up.

[Anonymous]

Is it human instinct to park a car on the tracks? Im only 15 & I've already heard of
6 different "car on tracks" incidents in southern California, all of the accidents were by
passenger trains. Scary huh ! When will people learn !

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lfish

The whole incident is interesting because the camera tells us a lot -- but it never tells us everything. (Think Rodney King.) What was going on a few seconds before what we see in this clip? What might have been going on to the left of the picture, or in front of the truck where we can't see? Does the truck driver have a clear view in the direction the train comes from, or is there a sharp curve or something that would hide the train?
(Don't get me wrong -- I'm very much in the camp of "don't never stop on tracks no how, no matter what.")
I'd really love to see this incident taken apart the same way an airliner accident is. And I would really like to know how the driver, and his company if he works for one, winds up.

You can bet it is being taken apart. If I understand my training everything within the last 72 hours of the accident time and date is fair game for investigation. That driver probably feels very very uncomfortable under the glare of the lights and penetrating questions that you or I wont even confess to our mothers.

Answers will probably wind up on the NTSB and published a year or so from now after they have arrived at thier findings. The civil problems of collecting the money to pay for the damage and injuries will go on for some time.

But right now there is probably alot going on.

Regarding the media and the need to understand the first few seconds before and after the shot, News media hardly ever gives out the full story. That will come out in due time.

I recall during the recent hostage executions in Iraq CNN and others only showed short videos featuring a statement of some kind. I have seen videos of the executions in it's raw form on the internet. and am sure that this video will probably circulate along the internet in it's entireity. Unedited by any news media. I am already seeking to find it.

[richardy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by goduckies

the thing is, it has to turn green, otherwise people who parked on the tracks would get whacked because the cars in front of them didn't move. In theory, you are correct, but you have to take the idiot factor, and reduce chances of injury, and the only way to do that would be to have a green light.
Brad

We have a similar intersection here and the signals are interlocked. When the crossing signals (with gates) activate the highway intersection signals immediately cycle to give a green indication only to the direction of travel away from the tracks if it did not have a green already, all other directions have a steady red. After about fifteen seconds the green cycles to a steady red then all directions go to flashing red for stop and proceed if safe under three way stop traffic rules.

The green is given so anyone that is in the position of being stuck on the tracks (however stupid and illegal it is) can safely clear through the traffic intersection. The parallel street is one way leading to a freeway on ramp so the traffic keeps moving even with the stop and proceed operation. The intersection has operated this way for at least thirty years without an accident.

As others earlier in the thread have said I would like to see more of the earlier video. I timed that the light was green for about 10 or 11 seconds from when the video started until the light turned yellow. I watched the video several times and it appears to me his tractor was sitting on the tracks when the grade crossing signal started, again it would help to see more of the earlier video. Of course there is a sign on grade crossing signal pole "do not stop on tracks". I wonder if he was stopped on the tracks, saw the train and tried to clear, maybe thought he was clear when he stopped again? It would be interesting to know what the truck driver said to the police. His statement should be on the police report.

[espeefoamer]

It is a good thing the trailer was mostly empty.I was on the City of New Orleans in 1989,when we hit a semi loaded with cardboard.The truck stalled with the trailer on the tracks. The driver got out in time,but we were doing 75MPH at time of impact.I found out from talking to other passengers that when the train hit,the engines and the first few cars lifted off the rails by about a foot, and sailed about 100 feet or so before coming down and landing on the rails! I was in the first coach, and we definately hit hard.I was streched out across two seats,asleep, and this really woke me up quick!

[Anonymous]

My first thought is how the whole thing could have been prevented by video camera monitoring of grade crossings and alerts given to trains, as recommended by a certain professor in Southern California.

OK, I'm being facetious.

OS

[Anonymous]

Sure looks like the trucker was a dumbs**t, but I can think of one possible scenario, based on what we can see on the video, where someone else may have been the culprit.

Suppose the trucker started across the tracks on a green light in moving traffic, and then got trapped by someone who either stopped for no reason, or stopped on the yellow instead of going on through? I admit it's far-fetched, but such things do happen. I'm not trying to defend the trucker here, just suggesting that there may have been other factors here that we can't see.

Now as for the trailer, well, if I was sitting in the cab of that truck, knowing that it was either me or the trailer, guess what? Bye-bye trailer! In fact, there's a much better chance that the truck tractor would have caused a derailment, so it's probably a good thing it worked out the way it did. I wonder if there's more tape of this than what they're showing us.

--JD

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by theNomad



Suppose the trucker started across the tracks on a green light in moving traffic, and then got trapped by someone who either stopped for no reason, or stopped on the yellow instead of going on through? I admit it's far-fetched, but such things do happen. I'm not trying to defend the trucker here, just suggesting that there may have been other factors here that we can't see.


--JD

Then my friend simple arithmatic takes over...4000lbs car -vs- 40,000 lb semi.-vs- 4,000,000 lbs train. Not much of a contest. If I was the truck driver and found myself in the conditions you describe, a driver stopping in front and blocking me on the tracks with a 4,000,000 lb train bearing down on me, well son, I aint gonna take a rocket scientist to figure that one out....Low gear gas/throttle and Mister Stoppedcar is gonna get pushed clean out of my way! I would't hesitate for a moment! The idiot in front is only one person, how many are on the train and what are the chances that a collision would derail the train and kill a bunch of passengers? I'll let the insurance companies figure it out from there...

BTW the driver in the video pulls up when the gates start coming down but then the light turns yellow, does he go thru? Nope, HE STOPS! and what do we get? KABLUEEY!!!! bit-o-trailer everywhere....dumb!

[Anonymous]

vsmith--

I don't disagree in the slightest about pushing a stopped car out of the way. That's exactly what I would do. As I said, it certainly looks like the trucker was the dumbguy. To take it a step further, as you point out, he stops at the red light. From the camera across the street, it appears that he could have kept going without endangering anybody, or at least made a right turn. My question goes only to what happened just prior to his starting across the tracks. Now I'm going to go back and watch the video a couple more times....

--JD

[richardy]

OS: Smile [:D]