Asbestos

[gabe]

I was reading a judicial opinoin today. It involved a FELA case of a railroad worker who was suing his employer railroad. I got to wondering, is there some area of railroad labor that uses a lot of asbestos? The opinoin did not indicate what was the source of the asbestos.

I seem to remember some steam locomotives being lined with Asbestos? But this was a 2003 case.

Thanks all,

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Asbestos was used to:

1. lag (insulate) boilers of almost all steam engines
2. insulate steam-heating pipes in practically every building bigger than something that could be heated with a coal stove, e.g., every building in a major terminal, almost every roundhouse and shop, insulated and heated water towers and treatment plants
3. insulate steam-heat lines on all the passenger equipment
4. in some types of composition brake shoes
5. as thermal and sound insulation in many passenger cars, cabooses, etc.
6. as thermal insulation in some applications in structures.

Railroads were in love with the stuff for good reason. Other than its carcinogenic properties, it's a fabulous material that's cheap, effective, and virtually indestructible. Too bad it's deadly if inhaled in large quantities.

The date 2002 isn't that important. It can be years before the effects of asbestosis materialize. That is WHY asbestos has proven so deadly. If it killed you on contact, humans would have learned 2,000 years ago to stay the hell away from it, or at least treat it with great respect. Asbestos is the mineral world's equivalent of HIV-II. The deadliness lies in the long latency and incubation period. The sad part is that the occupational medicine and epidemiology journals by the 1930s were publishing articles demonstrating that asbestos had deadly properties similar to silica dust, but there was so much invested into the use and production of asbestos by that point that no one wanted to change. The mines and factories didn't want to go out of business, the users didn't want to pay to remove and substitute, and the ordinary Joe making and applying the stuff didn't want to face getting a new job, or learning a new trade, or upsetting his paycheck. The government isn't going to do what people don't want it to do, so it sat on its hands. Not until attorneys uncovered the inconsistency between the use of asbestos and various Constitutional guarantees did asbestos use end, mostly because it got too expensive.

The one thing you might want to consider is that most asbestos (not all, most) remaining in the human enviroment is not dangerous. It's bound up in asphalt tile, or the form that isn't hazardous. Now we've swung the pendulum off the charts in the other direction and we're spending vast sums eliminating non-existent dangers. It would have been nice if people had simply done the right thing they day they first knew about the dangers of asbestos, but apparently that was too much to ask of the average human.

OS

[gabe]

Thank you OS.

Marco Polo really was on to something when he introduced Asbestos to the West. Too bad indeed about the carcinogenic properties.

Gabe

[morseman]

I believe that the slag from asbestos mines was used as ballast
on some railroads & then had to be removed ???
Could anyone tell me what railroads used asbastos slag for ballast ?????

[Anonymous]

I don't know, Morseman. But, maybe some terminology will help you in your search.

Slag comes from smelters -- it's fused, solidified rock that is often sharp, glassy in appearance, and consists of whatever the smelter didn't want to extract. It's the ore from which the desired metal is recovered thermally and chemically. If it's from a steel mill, it will be mostly silica; if its from a smelter that recovers non-ferrous metals such as copper or lead, it will be mostly iron, because the copper and lead ores have a high iron content. Slag is usually chemically inert, but not always.

Tailings comes from concentrators/mills -- it's finely powdered rock that is usually light grey or white in color, and consists of "country rock" from which the ore has been extracted. The country rock is ground to a powder and the ore is recovered mechanically or chemically, or both. It's essentially worthless except as backfill in the hole in the ground it came out of, and is a real environmental pain because minerals and ions in it can easily leach out with rainfall.

Waste comes from mines. It's merely the broken rock the mine has to move to get at the ore. It's big and chunky, and usually grey-white or dark brown when it comes out of the mine, and can weather to bright yellow.

So if it's asbestos slag you want to know about, you want to see where the asbestos smelters are located. The slag won't move too far from them as ballast -- maybe a radius of 200-500 miles -- before the transportation charges get so high that it becomes more profitable to find a new local source of ballast.

Western railroads loved copper smelter and lead smelter slag ballasts. Used a lot of it on D&RGW, SP, Santa Fe, WP, UP.

OS

[dldance]

I'll add one more use to the list: asbestos was used for fireproof electrical wiring insulation. So even RR electricians were at risk. However, the only other electrical insulations of the 1920's and 30's was rubber or asphalt impregnated cotton. These are a long way from fire resistant.

dd

[Anonymous]

For interests' sake, I believe asbestos is/was used in the bodies of race cars and the space shuttles.

[kevarc]

I am a Certified Asbestos Removal Supervisor.

Asbestos was not smelted. It was a plant that just seperated the native rock from the asbestos. Most mines and processing plants were in Canada.

The two main types of asbestos are amosite and chrysitile. It was banned by the EPA between 1973-1978. The ban was phased in for various uses. Though if you look at some of the roofing and flooring products you can still see it in use.

Flooring, AS LONG AS IT IS NOT DISTURBED, is ok. But when you try to remove the tile and the mastic you can and WILL release asbestos fibers. No if, ands ,or buts about, you will. While you can remove it from you house without a permit, you need to take a lot of precautions before you do.

The normal latency period for asbestosis is 10-20 years. NOTE: a smoker, who also works with asbestos, has a 50 times better chance to contract asbestosis than a non-smoker.

Mesothelioma, the thing you see the shysters advertising on TV about, has a latency period of 20 to 40 years and is relativly rare. Smoking does not increase the risk of it, strange huh? It is more closly linked to crocidotile asbestos, that was used for extremely high temp insulation.

[Anonymous]

Asbestos was also used in the C&S Dept. Before we had our signal houses, most everything (relays, etc) were housed in wayside cabinets (we call them cases). Open the front doors, and inside were shelves that the relays sat on. Open the back doors, that was the cable side. Between the front and back of these cabinets was a partion wall, and, it was made from asbestos - fire proofing material. Holes were drilled thru the partion so that you could pass the wires from the back to the relays in the front. I was hired on in 1979, but, these cases were placed long before I was hired. When we were told to drill new holes for, maybe, a circuit change that required additional wires, we just did it. You were a "young" employee, you didn't question what you were told to do. But, to be quite honest, I didn't have a clue about the dangers of asbestos then, and, most of us didn't. We were never told asbestos was dangerous. To us, it was like drilling a hole in your living room wall. We wore no protective gear, other than the required safety glasses that we're always to be wearing. Most of those cases are now gone, an environmental company was hired to take them out. Any that do remain have had their drilled holes coated with some kind of protective paint or epoxy, and, we're not to drill any holes at all in these cases.

[Anonymous]

In my late teens, I worked as a laborer on a variety of rehab projects in old railroad and rail-served industrial buildings, where among other things we yanked out old steam-heat and process-steam pipes jacketed with asbestos insulation, shoveled up all the broken bits on the concrete floor into wheelbarrows, knocked down walls with asbestos insulation, and shoveled them up, etc. We did that on one project for two months because we couldn't get a Bobcat loader into the spaces. All we ever wore were paper dust masks. After a few hours the masks were black with dirt and we looked like coal miners. Shortly afterward, asbestos was classified as a hazard. I've lived in fear of asbestosis ever since, but it's now been 25 years, knock on wood.

OS

[Clutch Cargo]

The UP removed the asbestos flooring and some pipe insulation in April last year at the Itasca Yard.

A note is posted that we are now asbestos free.

Kurt.

[MP57313]

I used to be a volunteer boardmember at a rail museum. The museum's SP Mogul had its asbestos removed some years ago; the removed asbestos was sealed, labeled, and placed inside the Mogul's tender. Why? There was some concern that, many years down the road, someone could stumble on or inhale some asbestos fibers of "unknown origin". The reduce the risk of lawsuit, the museum held on to the asbestos remnants so that it would know where it was at all times.

On a separate matter, the museum acquired a retired 1950s-era Santa Fe diner a few years later. The diner was so deteriorated that it was not worth refurbishing, and was sold for scrap. Part of the refurbishment would have been for removal of deteriorated asbestos insulation ... just cost too much.

MP

[gabe]

What do they use to insulate steam engines now?

A poster formerly known as "Gabe"

[Anonymous]

There've been reports in the last few days about a raft of problems surrounding a former asbestos mine in Libby, Mt. I suppose GN served it.

[Anonymous]

Actually, Tom, that was a vermiculite mine operated by W.R. Grace -- asbestos was a contaminate in the mineral deposits. The vermiculite was used in insulation and fireproofing materials, as well as potting soil and fertilizer. The mine and processing plant was served by GN, later BN, from its opening in 1919 to its closure in 1992.

W.R. Grace was indicted by a federal grand jury on February 7 on four counts of obstruction of justice, three counts of knowingly endangering the public, two counts of wire fraud to avoid liability, and one count of conspiracy. Seven senior officials were named on these felony charges, including its chief counsel and two senior vice presidents. These executives face up to 15 years in federal prison on each public endangerment charge and up to 5 years on each of the conspiracy and obstruction of justice charges, if convicted, and the company faces fines of up to $280 million or twice the losses suffered by the victims, if convicted. The EPA has already spent $55 million on clean-up costs. According to the Justice Department, more than 1,200 people, 70% who did not work at the mine, have suffered health effects. More than 200 deaths were believed linked to the asbestos exposure as of 1999.

Here's more info: http://www.occupationalhazards.com/articles/12965

OS

[Jack_S]

QUOTE: Originally posted by O.S.



1) Too bad it's deadly if inhaled in large quantities.

2) If it killed you on contact, humans would have learned 2,000 years ago to stay the hell away from it, or at least treat it with great respect.

3) The one thing you might want to consider is that most asbestos (not all, most) remaining in the human enviroment is not dangerous. It's bound up in asphalt tile, or the form that isn't hazardous.

1) There is evidence to support the conclusion that asbestos can be deadly even in small amounts. Particularly if the person smokes. Tobacco and asbestos seem to react synergisticly so that both are more deadly.

2) They did know about it 2000 years ago. The first literary mention of the dangers of both asbestos and silica dust was by Pliny the Elder.

And The New Yorker magazine did a comprehensive series of articles on asbestos danger in the late 1960s showing how Johns-Manville had suppressed research that revealed the danger. Since that series, at least, there is no excuse for ignoring it.

3) This is certainly the position of the asbestos companies. However, once the asphalt tile is fractured or abraded the asbestos can be released. Same with certain paints and coatings containing it. Even so, removing the asbestos can be more dangerous than leaving it sealed in place and making sure it stays that way.

Yes, acting to alleviate the danger as soon as it was known would be preferable. But when even major prescription drug companies cannot be trusted to be candid, what do you expect?

Jack

[Anonymous]

Jack, it would seem there's no shortage of thieves, liars, and bs artists even in the ranks of the well-paid. You'd think that once people had the nice house, nice car, etc., they'd be happy with what they had, but noooo. They need MORE. I've always considered it a much worse sin to be a rich man who steals than a poor man who steals, but apparently I'm in the minority in this country, judging by who goes to jail and the time they serve -- it's rarely the well-off.

This is cursory but accurate chronology of the suppression of knowledge of the dangers of asbestos:

http://www.nycosh.org/workplace_hazards/asbestos_chronology.html

OS

[tree68]

While I was in the Air Force I worked in rawinsonde (weather balloons). One way that the gas was created to fill the balloons was to crack anhydrous ammonia into hydrogen. It had to be done at something like 1700 degrees in a retort with a catalyst. The retort was packed in asbestos. I had the "opportunity" to repack one of them. The asbestos came in a back like cellulose insulation would be in. We had to wet it and pack it in. No masks, no gloves, no nothing. Of course, we didn't know any better (circa 1969). Makes me glad I don't smoke.

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by O.S.

Jack, it would seem there's no shortage of thieves, liars, and bs artists even in the ranks of the well-paid. You'd think that once people had the nice house, nice car, etc., they'd be happy with what they had, but noooo. They need MORE. I've always considered it a much worse sin to be a rich man who steals than a poor man who steals, but apparently I'm in the minority in this country, judging by who goes to jail and the time they serve -- it's rarely the well-off.

This is cursory but accurate chronology of the suppression of knowledge of the dangers of asbestos:

http://www.nycosh.org/workplace_hazards/asbestos_chronology.html

OS

I couldn't agree more. If an inner-city youth who has little money, less education, and even less hope in life commits a robbery knowing that someone may die in the heat of the moment, and someone does die, he spends the rest of his life in jail (if his life isn’t taken away from him).

I have no problem with that--as I have facilitated (the former) eventuality on more than one occasion.

However, when a team of Enron execs who have more money than 95% of this forum combined, have substantial educations, and have everything going for them, sit back in a well thought out plan (invectively criticizing California citizens as they are doing it no less!) and decide to fix the California energy market, knowing that power outages will develop, and in turn knowing that air conditioning units will fail in nursing homes, rail crossings wont work, traffic signals will fail, and 41 deaths result of the power outages, they (or more accurately, "some") get some securities violation prison sentence and are not charged with the act they committed---namely MURDER (felony murder to be precise).

Shouldn't the penalty be more sever for people like Enron as compared to the inner-city youth?

Sorry for my rant.

Gabe