No Future for Steam???

[Anonymous]

Ok, folks, here's a really important topic. Any ideas or help would be of great service to steam lovers everywhere!

As you may have recently read on Trains.com, steam locomotive restoration projects, especially the large ones, are becomming a very endangered species.

The Frisco group recently decided to shut down operations because they can no longer afford insurance. 4449 was having difficulties getting new insurance for future excursions after it's run over BNSF to Bend, Oregon. And SP&S 700 will only run this fall over MRL because the passenger operator will cover the insurance. Result: over $1k per ticket!!!

If this trend continues, big steam on the mainline may only exist on UP, which funds it's own exclusive program.

Is there anything we as fans can do to change this? Are there any ideas for what the preservationist can do to counter this ever increasing cost? Do any of you belong to some of these groups elsewhere, and have found solutions or mitigations?

[cprted]

I'm afraid this is the current trend. Up here in Canada, BC Rail just killed their steam program that operated an Ex-CPR 2-8-0 and an Ex-CPR Royal Hudson between North Vancouver and Squamish during the summer months. The West Coast Railway Association, which has been spearheading the fight the preserve 2860 and 3716 for mainline service, was planning to operate a deisel excursion train this summer pulled by their FP7 to raise money for the project, however, just last week the 12 week schedule was cancelled because the insurance company wanted $90,000 up front for 3 months of coverage.

Though the news is not all bad. Canadian Pacific just started a steam program using CPR Hudson 2816 now dubbed "The Empress" (for info on train appearances go to http://www.cpr.ca/ )and another group in Kamloops BC has just restored a Canadian National light Mikado.

[Anonymous]

Ted:

I supposed CP wouldn't be interested in getting their hands on 2860 then? Two is better than one, isn't it?

I almost think that the only way that we can get big steam back on the main is to get it back in the hands of the host railroads. They're about the only folks left who have the money for financing it.

Alexander

[RudyRockvilleMD]

It seems as if premiums are increasing for almost all types of insurance, and the railroads are requiring higher levels of insurance coverage so this combination explains why steam programs are having to either curtail operations or shutdown altogether. Perhaps steam opertions on regional railroads such as the Ohio Central are the answer.

[Anonymous]

But is the insurance any lower for small carriers?

I know that 4449 recently did a trip over local Portland & Western- however it carried no passengers.

My thought would be that insurance would be cheaper on the big roads, due to better track structure, etc... However this seems not to be the case.

[Anonymous]

The 7 day display/runs AFT 4449 did ending yesterday were because of the Portland & Western RR asking of us to attend the Artrain display. The 4449 was covered on the P&W's insurance policy. Unfortunately that policy didn't cover passengers, so the people you saw on the train were railroad guests and people who put the Artrain event together. We had many people wanting ticket info, but we had to tell them about the insurance situation.

Because of the success of the event and the positive PR it gave the P&W, we're all hoping that this might leed to future trips again on the P&W.

The big factors aren't only insurance, but the taking of "privately owned" (group/museum/city/etc.) 60+ year old steam locomotives out for joy rides and having mechanical problems and delaying MILLIONS of dollars worth of freight trains doesn't help the situation. The locomotives are old, and problems happen. But when one locomotive has a problem, it reflects on all of them.

Smokebox

[Anonymous]

That is as I suspected, then. I know that there were many people bugging me about why there had been no publicity, and when I told them, because there were no excursions, they about died!

I am glad it went well. I sincerley hope that P&W will feel encouraged by this and I think they've got some pretty territory once you get out of the burbs.

I understand regarding your comments on reliability... which i assume are aimed at one of 4449's stablemates. Ouch! As a supporter of that rival I am somewhat put out but I know that what you saty is true.

My understanding tho is that BNSF was very good about the delays at Ritzville. However I know of no solution to such problems other than religious maintenance and good funding, neither of which can or is likely to occur if a loco sits idle. No one salutes a flag that isn't flown.

Too bad we couldn't talk BNSF into funding a steam program in competition with UP's ;-)

Alexander

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Dave, Alexander: You have both added another important issue, reliability of the steam engine. As careful and as professional as the St Louis Steam Train Association was about the maintenance of 1522 they still had problems when out on the road.

Other reasons why the future for steam hauled special trains may not be too bright are the expense of the program and a railroad's management may not be too willing to host a steam hauled special train, not only for the operational reasons, but for liability reasons. Since steam hauled trains are rare, they draw large crowds, and somebody in the crowd could get hurt.

[Anonymous]

SUEING.That is it.

[Anonymous]

I will definitely testify to the crowds drawn by big steam.

A recent excursion i took however provides some answer to that. I rode last july behind 4449 in an excursion in conjunction with the Portland Rose Festival.

This excursion started at Portland Union Sta., and then went up the columbia Gorge to Wishram.

Since Wishram is the middle of nowhere, the only public there were the passengers from the train. And there are allready excellent crowd controls at Union Station.

So perhaps the best method is to run these excursions into areas not easily accesable or populated, and out of locations where track access can be restricted.

However, perhaps someone connected to the most recent P&W showing can comment on their problems and how they handle them. So far, I don't think that anyone has been run over by steam on P&W.

Alexander

[Anonymous]

Yes, the stable mate of the 4449 has had its problems, but then so has the 4449 in its day. Today there are few mainline locomotives running, and any time one has a failure that causes delays in rail traffic, it affects all of the operators. This is not ment to be a jab at the 700 or any of the other operators, as we all know this is just a fact of how sensitive these operations are.

Smokebox

[Anonymous]

Dave:

I grinned even as I accused you of that "stab". I don't take it personally and if I were directly involved in that project I still wouldn't take it personally.

It is a fair critique and we have to look at this hard if we want to keep these two beauties running.

And yeah, 4449 has had a day or two as well... this is part of why these monsters got replaced in the first place.

I guess we are just lucky that we have two up here in Portland, while much of the US has none at all. Still can't get over 611 being mothballed all those years ago.....

Alexander

[dknelson]

We in the upper midwest have been very fortunate this summer, steam-wise. A few weeks ago it was UPs 3985 in runs through Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa and MN. Then a week or so later, Milwaukee Road 261 in Wisconsin and Illinois. Today I saw Soo Line 1003, a 2-8-2, glossy black, perfectly maintained, heading what has to be the most colorful and beautiful train ever assembled on American rails, the Great Circus Train from Baraboo to Milwaukee. It ran to Hartford WI behind Wisconsin & Southern E8s (immaculate) and the steamer was added for the run to Horicon WI where the train will be turned and run back to Milwaukee Monday July 8th. If you have never seen the Great Circus Train (or the Great Circus Parade in Milwaukee) you have missed a masterpiece of restoration -- circus wagons from the turn of the century, painted every color, huge wooden wheels, on authentic circus flatcars with a circus stock car (for elephants!) and passenger cars.
The steamer is sponsored by Strong Funds, a mutual fund. Thanks to them the steam engine and train can be enjoyed by anyone willing to come to Wisconsin and find a place trackside.
IF this is the end of steam it is going out in high style
Here is hoping the slides turn out.
Dave Nelson

[Anonymous]

You say Soo 1003 is funded by "Strong Funds, a mutual fund"

Do you mean that the mutual fund manager sponsors it, (ala Fidelity, Vangard, etc.. is Peter Lynch a railfan?) or do you mean that the group that restores the loco has investments in the mutual fund that pay for the program?

( I assume the former.)

Alexander

[dknelson]

LOL
Strong Funds helped pay for the train and the locomotive in return for advertising space on the tender and on some of the passenger cars.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Here's something interesting I heard while the UP 3985 was in Des Moines: I was talking with one of the door watchers at the gift car and he mentioned that although it was good to have all those foamers looking at the loco, they were hoping to get more of the general public out to see it, since "That's what the people in Omaha want to see". So, at least at UP, the future of steam depends on what the people think.

[Anonymous]

So, if we put Louis Rukeyser's face on the side of 4449 CNBC might pay something for that?

Alexander

[citidude]

Here's another possibility - Operation of steam trains on tracks owned by commuter rail authorities. This was done a few years ago on NJ Transit's Hoboken-Port Jervis Line with ex C & O 614 and more recently on the Cal Train San Francisco-San Jose Line with ex-SP 2472.

I rode on the Martch 30, 2002 CalTrain excursion sponsored by the Golden Gate Railroad Museum. The trip was short (1/2 day) due to the short distance of this line (38 miles). Additionally, the scenery cannot compare to the Pacific Northwest Canyon or the Wisconsin North Woods. However, this was still a very nice trip. The train operated at waht appeared to be track speed throughout the trip. In addition to the service stop at San Jose, there were two photo-run-bys and one photo stop! A baggage car placed behind the locomotive allowed riders to listen to the locomotive and blow its whistle while it sped down the track.

David

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately for us in the PNW there are few commuter corridors, except Sound Transit in Seattle, and that's over BNSF.

Alexander

[Anonymous]

Question: How does one tell the difference between foamers and the general public, at least on sight?

And NO JOKES!

Alexander

[Anonymous]

From what I understand, and I could be wrong, the Bay area line will be down for a couple of years while they do track work on the weekends. I also read the that the 2467 might not be operating after this year.

Consider yourself lucky you were on that trip, and thank YOU for SUPPORTING mainline steam!

Smokebox

[Anonymous]

The general public wants to know were to buy tickets and foamers want to know when the locomotive is moving next!

Smokebox

[Anonymous]

I must be a cross-breed then, cause I always want to know both.

Alexander

[Anonymous]

Generally, you can tell a foamer by the numbers of cameras they're carrying and the amount of pins on their hats. Another dead giveaway, at least in DM, is if you were on the Guthrie Ave. bridge with them for 3 hours, waiting in the hot baking sun. They also complain about only seeing the train at 10 different spots in one day.

[Anonymous]

Well I always avoid the pin thing. But I admit the camera bit and the hanging around for six hours by the tracks are good descriptions of me.

Once a group of us were at Portland Union Station long after closing, standing down by the tower. A woman cop came moseying over and asked us what we were doing there. We had to explain to her we had just got off the steam excursion (two hours ago,) and were waiting for the 4449 to come back through again.

She finally gave us a pass, especially when one of us began setting out a camera, but boy, she sure gave us a weird look for a while, and warned us to stay off the tracks.

AC

[citidude]

I understand that the line will be shut down every weekend for the rest of the year for a major improvement program known as the Ponderosa Project. The trip on which I rode would be the last steam excursion on this line for a while.

The optimist in me wants to believe that once the project is finished, that the feasibility of operating a steam excursion with 2472 will increase because the track impovements will allow for greater operating flexibility.

By the way, this excursion was operated on a Saturday when the volume of commute train traffic was greater than many freight-only main lines.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Well, AC, at least you had some shade. I was on an overpass, sweating like a fireman in 90 degree heat, sitting through 3 hours of "move 50 feet, wait a half hour" movement, just so that the UP 3985 could go directly under me. One of my best friends is a more insane foamer than me, and he left after 2 hours!

[Anonymous]

Well I don't think I've ever done anything that insane. I would've tried to find a cool restaurant somewhere... but I have waited 2 hours before.... dedication and patience are required traits.

Maybe that's another spotting clue for railfans- they stand about for hours when no train is present, looking at their watches, shading their eyes while scanning, and cupping hands to their ears to listen for steam whistles....

Alexander