Starting a Diesel-electric locomotive

[THayman]

I am sure this topic came up before, but I've been searching the forums and I can't find anything on it. So here it is: how do you start a diesel locomotive? I know how all of the controls operate and all once you're started, (thanks to MS Train Sim among other sources) but how do you start it? Is it a keystart like a car, or is it some thing more complicated?

[Randy Stahl]

Pretty much like a key start on a car, except no key. some start prime switches are cleverly hidden.
Randy

[edblysard]

Depends,
If the rear engineers side window is busted out, all you probaly need is a screwdriver....

Ed[:D]

[csxengineer98]

first you have to make sure that all the electrical circet brakers and switchs that will alow it to start are on...(im not telling which ones and where they are)....
and then you have to find the start station....now you have to make sure that the safty rests are not triped... if eveything is good...you move the start swtich to prime for 30 seconds....and then to start to start it cranking.... if she donts want to trun over while cranking..you grab the layshaft lever and and give her some more fuel.....and it "should" start....lol
csx engineer

[BaltACD]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

first you have to make sure that all the electrical circet brakers and switchs that will alow it to start are on...(im not telling which ones and where they are)....
and then you have to find the start station....now you have to make sure that the safty rests are not triped... if eveything is good...you move the start swtich to prime for 30 seconds....and then to start to start it cranking.... if she donts want to trun over while cranking..you grab the layshaft lever and and give her some more fuel.....and it "should" start....lol
csx engineer

Are there still petcocks that have to be opened on each cylinder to insure that the cylinders are not hydrolocked?

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

first you have to make sure that all the electrical circet brakers and switchs that will alow it to start are on...(im not telling which ones and where they are)....
and then you have to find the start station....now you have to make sure that the safty rests are not triped... if eveything is good...you move the start swtich to prime for 30 seconds....and then to start to start it cranking.... if she donts want to trun over while cranking..you grab the layshaft lever and and give her some more fuel.....and it "should" start....lol
csx engineer

Are there still petcocks that have to be opened on each cylinder to insure that the cylinders are not hydrolocked?

whats a petcock? lol
well yea..they still have them..but the majority of prime movers come with auto drain equipment that will drain the cylinders....i have never used a petcock in the 7 years i have been in engin service... hell..i dont even know nor was ever showed how to drain a cylinder with a petcock....
csx engineer

[dldance]

and all this time I thought they had a giant kick starter ;-)

dd

[Anonymous]

Many of the engines on the CP are equiped with 'Smart Start'. The system is designed for fuel conservation. The engines start automatically when the water temp gets below a certain level (to prevent freezing). In warmer months, the engines 'time out' and shut themselves down. During shutdown, a warning bell sounds in the cab. If the reverser is not moved in a certain amount of seconds, the diesel stops. MU'd units operated the same way. It can get verrrrry quiet all of a sudden. Neater yet is running the lead unit in the consist at idle. All controls function, lights , heat and ac work, but the diesel isn't under load (cut out). Makes for a very quiet and nice ride. Usually though, a train has too few engines, not too many. Some smart start systems allow the engineer to start the engine by simply putting the reverser in forward. The engine (engines) spring to life , the conductor yells "HIGHBALL'" and the engineer replies "HERE WE GO! Then the folks in the cab get to experience the thrill of anywhere between three thousand and 20 thousand horses getting thirteen thousand tons of steel and grain rolling down the rails! This is one of those few moments when yes, you should be jealous of those who do this for a living!

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by luckyboy

Many of the engines on the CP are equiped with 'Smart Start'. The system is designed for fuel conservation. The engines start automatically when the water temp gets below a certain level (to prevent freezing). In warmer months, the engines 'time out' and shut themselves down. During shutdown, a warning bell sounds in the cab. If the reverser is not moved in a certain amount of seconds, the diesel stops. MU'd units operated the same way. It can get verrrrry quiet all of a sudden. Neater yet is running the lead unit in the consist at idle. All controls function, lights , heat and ac work, but the diesel isn't under load (cut out). Makes for a very quiet and nice ride. Usually though, a train has too few engines, not too many. Some smart start systems allow the engineer to start the engine by simply putting the reverser in forward. The engine (engines) spring to life , the conductor yells "HIGHBALL'" and the engineer replies "HERE WE GO! Then the folks in the cab get to experience the thrill of anywhere between three thousand and 20 thousand horses getting thirteen thousand tons of steel and grain rolling down the rails! This is one of those few moments when yes, you should be jealous of those who do this for a living!

yes we have the same type of system on many csx engins now too...the K9 APU units...but many of them have the auto start with the reverser disabled now..so you have to still go out and start them manualy if the APU shuts it down...
alot of the new power..mostly EMD 70 and 80 macs and im guessing the 90macs have it built in from the factory... also they have a push button in cab starter...no need to go out on the catwalk to find a start station....now all the GEs i have been on..have a maunal start station outside the cab...some other roads might have an in cab start station..but i have never seen it...
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

Do the diesel-electrics have glow plugs? I know once it gets around or below freezing, you just leave them running to keep everything from freezing up, but just curious.

[adrianspeeder]

I doubt it. I don't need glowplugs below freezing, but then again i have a fraction of engine size compared to these beasts.

Adrianspeeder

[BNSFGP38]

Knife switch, breakers,run-isolate swtich in start, pu***he button, scream "Come on you mother*&*(&)*(%%^$(^_**_(&_&^" [}:)],it rolls and kicks on.

[dwil89]

Newer NS Locomotives have autostart too, such as selected Dash 9's and SD70M's. There will be a sticker on the cab saying autostart equipped. I read where CSX was going to install something like a 'pony engine' on some of its fleet. It would serve to keep the oil and water warm on the main prime-mover. A number of years ago,my father bought an old Caterpillar crawler/dozer with a 4 cylinder diesel engine with a small 2 cylinder gas engine as the starter. You rope start the pony motor..it warms the coolant and cylinders of the diesel, then you engage a clutch to use the pony to start the diesel....In the case of the concept on Locomotives, it does all of the above except start the primemover, just keeps it warm. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSFGP38

Knife switch, breakers,run-isolate swtich in start, pu***he button, scream "Come on you mother*&*(&)*(%%^$(^_**_(&_&^" [}:)],it rolls and kicks on.

thats only with a GE.... you know right away with an EMD if its going to start or not...lol
csx engineer

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

Newer NS Locomotives have autostart too, such as selected Dash 9's and SD70M's. There will be a sticker on the cab saying autostart equipped. I read where CSX was going to install something like a 'pony engine' on some of its fleet. It would serve to keep the oil and water warm on the main prime-mover. A number of years ago,my father bought an old Caterpillar crawler/dozer with a 4 cylinder diesel engine with a small 2 cylinder gas engine as the starter. You rope start the pony motor..it warms the coolant and cylinders of the diesel, then you engage a clutch to use the pony to start the diesel....In the case of the concept on Locomotives, it does all of the above except start the primemover, just keeps it warm. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

csx already has it... its the K9 APU unit... and its just that..a small engin that runs to keep the water warm..and the battery charged up... should it get so cold out that it cant keep the water warm on its own..it will start the main prime mover and alow it to run untill the water is at a preset temp setting..and then it shuts the prime mover down agin... and takes over...this prosses will keep on going untill the unit is started and used for service...or untill the APU faults out..and dumps the water to protect the prime mover...
csx engineer

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxengineer98

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwil89

Newer NS Locomotives have autostart too, such as selected Dash 9's and SD70M's. There will be a sticker on the cab saying autostart equipped. I read where CSX was going to install something like a 'pony engine' on some of its fleet. It would serve to keep the oil and water warm on the main prime-mover. A number of years ago,my father bought an old Caterpillar crawler/dozer with a 4 cylinder diesel engine with a small 2 cylinder gas engine as the starter. You rope start the pony motor..it warms the coolant and cylinders of the diesel, then you engage a clutch to use the pony to start the diesel....In the case of the concept on Locomotives, it does all of the above except start the primemover, just keeps it warm. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

csx already has it... its the K9 APU unit... and its just that..a small engin that runs to keep the water warm..and the battery charged up... should it get so cold out that it cant keep the water warm on its own..it will start the main prime mover and alow it to run untill the water is at a preset temp setting..and then it shuts the prime mover down agin... and takes over...this prosses will keep on going untill the unit is started and used for service...or untill the APU faults out..and dumps the water to protect the prime mover...
csx engineer

Thanks..thats what I thought...I do remember reading that it was also meant as a fuel savings, the APU would use a few quarts to a gallon an hour instead of the 5 gallons an hour the main prime mover would use were it kept idling. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

i might add that once you get the engin started you need to insert the reversing lever its shaped like a key on the end opposit the handle..... on a verry rare ocaccion i have seen one engin jump start another with electric cables from cab to cab becouse the batteries were dead...glennbob p.s. i do have a photo of one bn engin jump starting the other from a parrall track>>

[Anonymous]

On the subject of petcocks, most large diesel engines I worked on in the Navy have indicator cocks on each cylinder which were opened before starting and the engine cranked over while someone watched for coolant discharge. Any disharge would result in a repair job. If nothing was seen the cocks were closed and the engine started.
This same indicator cocks were used at about 400 hour cycles to measure cylinder firing pressure using a Kline Pressure Guage at near full load and RPM, results were recorded for maintenance histroy.

[Anonymous]

on the subject of petcocks the white superrior 8 cylinder in line has a snifter valve port on the side of each cylinder to attach a bacaratt firing pressure tester.. this is used when the engin is running>>> also this save is true of emd engins this test shows the actual firing pressure exerted at each cylinder and is an indication of fuel metering

[Paul Milenkovic]

About starting Diesels . . .

In the mid 1990's, my poppa and I went on a motoring trip from Munich through Austria to Slovenia. We get to the rental garage, and I find we have a Fiat hatchback. OooooooohNoooooooo! Actually, for all the bad tales of Fiats in the American market, this one is pretty nice and quiet with firm seats. And it is a turbo Diesel! Oh, fun! (Oh, save some Deutsche Marks on fuel on account of the German trucking lobby and the higher tax on gasoline).

I get in and turn the key. R-rer-rer-rer-rer! Nothing. Try it again. R-rer-rer-rer-rer-rer. I am starting to sweat. The rental car guy didn't tell us anything about a trick to this car. And then, a distant memory of having worked 20 years earlier at an auto company on a direct-cylinder fuel injection project as an electrical engineer, and all of the things my automotive-engineer boss told me about Diesels. Ah, glow plugs! Turn the key part way to get the red glow plug indicator, wait for red indicator light to go out (mind you I had no instructions on this, if it weren't for my stint at a car company, I would be another dumb American tourist draining the battery trying to start that car), turn the key, and vroom!

Now I was not a complete Diesel neophyte. My poppa has an IH Diesel tractor (50 HP) for his orchard which I have run many an hour doing chores for him, and there are no glow plugs. You move a level to change the injector advance, crank, it catches, a little black puff of smoke, a little rough running, move the injector advance to the run position, put it in gear and pull out of the shed. I got training on this procedure and have done it for years.

What's the difference? The IH is a DI (direct-injection) Diesel as are just about most truck engines, locomotives, and bigger stuff. The Fiat was an IDI (indirect-injection) Diesel. It has a combustion prechamber which requires a glow plug for starting. It has more complete combustion under heavy load, so there is less smoke at higher power and had been preferred for auto Diesels. The tractor and the locomotive are direct injection -- oddly enough, this requires much lower compression ratios and is easier starting. The drawback is that the tractor won't keep up with cars in traffic.

As it turns out, direct injection is making inroads into cars. You see those VW Diesels with the TDI emblem on the trunk lid? Turbo-Direct-Injection. Apparently they figured out how to make direct injection Diesels that get enough HP per cubic inch to work OK for cars, and the Turbo helps a lot too -- I don't think you would want a non-turbo DI car engine. While the DI Diesel has a lower compression, it is supposed to get better fuel economy because the higher compression required for IDI increases engine friction without helping enough with thermodynamic efficiency increase. And no glow plugs!

[Justicar]

csxengineer98, now I know what those things are sitting in the back of your csx junkers. lol I asked our roundhouse machinists and they didn't even know it was there, let alone what it was and what it did. I tried to start one of your finest pieces of locomotive up here in St Paul one day and wasn't having much luck. I finally figured out how to start this APU thing which seemed to sit all the way in the back of the engine. But the start control was in the cab over on the fireman's side if I recall correctly. Anyway, it started and I even went back to see what it was doing and still couldn't figure it out. I just assumed it was some kind of "smart start" fuel conservation gizmo. The only thing I can figure out is that it was given to us dead or it died enroute and none of our people knew how to re-start it.

So, what does APU stand for and do you like them?

And to add a bit to my comrade luckyboy's response, there's actually a whole bunch of parameters that must be met for the engine to shut itself down. Some of these are air pressure of the train line, main resevoir and brake cylinder, air temperature, battery charge status and prolly a few others that I've forgotten. Some of these depend on if the unit is set up to lead or trail, of course. Also, smart start is not train-lined, that is to say one unit's smart start has no effect on other units mu'ed to it. Simiarily, the high idle feature of some locomotives is not train-lined either. This automatically increases the idle speed of the locomotive in cold weather to prevent freeze up. So, you could have a locomotive consist of all nice new GE dash 9's and Mac 90's mu'ed to this older SD-40, Geep 38 or whatnot and be forced to leave the lead unit in notch 4 if its below zero and unless you isolated the other units they'd all sit and burn fuel to keep that lone unit from freezing up, cept for the leader which would be isolated by default.

All of this is CP specific...your mileage may vary.

[tree68]

APU = Auxiliary Power Unit. Also those little yellow trailers you see around airplanes, with the hoses and cables sprouting all over the place.

Re: Jump starting a loco - I think I came up on the end of the process one time on the ICG. The RR employee was just putting the cables away in a pickup that had a bed full of batteries. I've always assumed that the engine quit for some reason (or was shut down) and wouldn't start on it's own batteries. Most of the time if ICG left an engine at that spot (fairly frequently), it was left running.

I remember finding on the web once the starting procedure for a GP7 or 9. It certainly wasn't a turn-key operation.

For the mechanics among us - I seem to recall that at one time the main generator was used to turn over the prime mover. Is that still the case?

[Anonymous]

For Paul M.
I once had a Fiat 850 Spider. We said that FIAT stood for "Fix it again Tony", not the official name of "Federation Italian Automobile Tourin" Please excuse my spelling as I am not fluent in Italian. The correct name is the Italian version of my Engli***ranslation. I drove the Spider from Orange county to down town Los Angeles for three years with no trouble. The car hated my wife and would strike out at her every time she drove it. She has such assorted problems as the seat rail coming unwelded (rust) and flying forward, the gas petal falling on the floor, and an electrical fire in a gas station. Good place to have a car fire. When we moved to Texas we sold the Spider in a garage sale. I pitty the sucker who bought it.

[Anonymous]

Our transit system, which I am a "retired" board member has 13 Budd RDCs. These RDCs being 1950 vintage technology had three diesel engines-two for power and one for hotel services. These engines had to be started from the outside by rolling the engine with an air starter. The cab of the RDC, being the vestibule, did not have room for a lot of buttons and switches.

[Anonymous]

A sideline to starting engines comes from my experience in the oil and gas industry. Our industry has many natural gas fired compressors that are started manually. The starting procedure would be to 1: Turn on Manzel or Traborn lubricators. 2: Roll engine on compressed air. 3: Turn on spark. 4: Turn on fuel gas. 5: Turn off compressed air. If you turned on the fuel gas before turning on the spark the engine would backfire when the spark was turned on. This would be cause for the installation of a new muffler which cost considerably more than an automobile muffler and would make management unhappy.

[BNSFGP38]

QUOTE: For the mechanics among us - I seem to recall that at one time the main generator was used to turn over the prime mover. Is that still the case?

I have started a GP-10 that had a MG. But I started a GP-38 that had a separate starter.

[Anonymous]

About 10 yrs ago, UP had an incident at Wichita,KS where two thugs tresspassed into the yard during the middle of the night when no one was around, boarded a pair of switch engs, got them moving taking them out of the yard on a three mile joyride through town. Witnesses reported the engs speeding by w/no lights or horn blowing. The engs then changed directions coming back to the yard, the theives dismounted and the engs went around a 10 mph curve at what was reported to be 30-40 mph, came off the trk and skitted down a street for one block. No one was hurt but what a mess. Both engs were rebuilt. I believe #s were 2279 &1661. The case went unsolved untl four yrs ago when through the help of Crimestoppers, the two thugs were caught and did serve some hard time at the crossbar hotel. Just be careful in who you talk with on subjects like this. Not every non rr emp needs to know details on eng operation.

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull

Just be careful in who you talk with on subjects like this. Not every non rr emp needs to know details on eng operation.

Too Late - Remember, I got starting instructions for an EMD engine (GP7 or 9) off the web...

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by sammythebull

Just be careful in who you talk with on subjects like this. Not every non rr emp needs to know details on eng operation.

Too Late - Remember, I got starting instructions for an EMD engine (GP7 or 9) off the web...

starting it is only half the battle..you have to know how to set it up to be able to get it moving once its running...what switches you have to have on and off...and what not..and that information i am not going to give out......
csx engineer

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Paul Milenkovic
Posted: 08 Feb 2005, 21:09:32
About starting Diesels . . .

In the mid 1990's, my poppa and I went on a motoring trip from Munich through Austria to Slovenia. We get to the rental garage, and I find we have a Fiat hatchback. OooooooohNoooooooo! Actually, for all the bad tales of Fiats in the American market, this one is pretty nice and quiet with firm seats. And it is a turbo Diesel! Oh, fun! (Oh, save some Deutsche Marks on fuel on account of the German trucking lobby and the higher tax on gasoline).

I get in and turn the key. R-rer-rer-rer-rer! Nothing. Try it again. R-rer-rer-rer-rer-rer. I am starting to sweat. The rental car guy didn't tell us anything about a trick to this car. And then, a distant memory of having worked 20 years earlier at an auto company on a direct-cylinder fuel injection project as an electrical engineer, and all of the things my automotive-engineer boss told me about Diesels. Ah, glow plugs! Turn the key part way to get the red glow plug indicator, wait for red indicator light to go out (mind you I had no instructions on this, if it weren't for my stint at a car company, I would be another dumb American tourist draining the battery trying to start that car), turn the key, and vroom!

Now I was not a complete Diesel neophyte. My poppa has an IH Diesel tractor (50 HP) for his orchard which I have run many an hour doing chores for him, and there are no glow plugs. You move a level to change the injector advance, crank, it catches, a little black puff of smoke, a little rough running, move the injector advance to the run position, put it in gear and pull out of the shed. I got training on this procedure and have done it for years.

What's the difference? The IH is a DI (direct-injection) Diesel as are just about most truck engines, locomotives, and bigger stuff. The Fiat was an IDI (indirect-injection) Diesel. It has a combustion prechamber which requires a glow plug for starting. It has more complete combustion under heavy load, so there is less smoke at higher power and had been preferred for auto Diesels. The tractor and the locomotive are direct injection -- oddly enough, this requires much lower compression ratios and is easier starting. The drawback is that the tractor won't keep up with cars in traffic.

As it turns out, direct injection is making inroads into cars. You see those VW Diesels with the TDI emblem on the trunk lid? Turbo-Direct-Injection. Apparently they figured out how to make direct injection Diesels that get enough HP per cubic inch to work OK for cars, and the Turbo helps a lot too -- I don't think you would want a non-turbo DI car engine. While the DI Diesel has a lower compression, it is supposed to get better fuel economy because the higher compression required for IDI increases engine friction without helping enough with thermodynamic efficiency increase. And no glow plugs!

If I'm not mistaken, aren't the Ford Powerstroke Diesels direct injection now, making them much louder? What my dad told me awhile back anyway. adrianspeeder could probably refresh my mind here...