adkrr64 I would opine that it was snow/ ice on the brake shoes. Air brake and train handling rules often contain provisions that the engineer must peridocally apply the brakes in snowy conditions order to clean out any snow/ ice that may have accumulated and to ensure brake effectiveness. Normally, the engineer would do this when approaching a location where the brakes will be needed, i.e. approaching a downhill section or a siding or stopping point, but it would be counterintuitive to do so on an uphill climb. The other reason I am thinking snow on the brake shoes is that the train did eventually stop itself. As it was rolling backwards, the brake shoes eventually cleaned out the snow as they slowly heated up, and the brakes gradually began to grab. It is the same reasoning as to why you apply the brakes before you need them - to give the brakes time to clean themselves of snow and warm the shoes to where they will be effective. Of course I have no odea of the territory, so it could also be that the rear portion of the train got to a flat enough section of track where gravity was less of a factor.
I would opine that it was snow/ ice on the brake shoes. Air brake and train handling rules often contain provisions that the engineer must peridocally apply the brakes in snowy conditions order to clean out any snow/ ice that may have accumulated and to ensure brake effectiveness. Normally, the engineer would do this when approaching a location where the brakes will be needed, i.e. approaching a downhill section or a siding or stopping point, but it would be counterintuitive to do so on an uphill climb.
The other reason I am thinking snow on the brake shoes is that the train did eventually stop itself. As it was rolling backwards, the brake shoes eventually cleaned out the snow as they slowly heated up, and the brakes gradually began to grab. It is the same reasoning as to why you apply the brakes before you need them - to give the brakes time to clean themselves of snow and warm the shoes to where they will be effective. Of course I have no odea of the territory, so it could also be that the rear portion of the train got to a flat enough section of track where gravity was less of a factor.
The incident happened on Rutledge hill, named for the siding at the top of the hill. Rutledge was also the junction with the original main line from Marion/Cedar Rapids and the current main line from Davenport. The original line became a secondary branch and was abandoned in 1980. The hill had the only regularly assigned helper district on the MILW east of the mountain districts in the steam era.
Ottumwa is a crew change point between Nahant (Davenport) and Kansas City. The hill isn't long, but steep and on a curve. When the rear end was in the BNSF interlocking it was on the flatter portion.
Jeff
Ulrich Backshop I wonder how autonomous railcars would do in this situation, since this is the area that some proposed to use them in? Same laws of physics would apply.. likely they too would slide, although the emotive radio chatter would be absent.. Would a third locomotive on the back have helped? Sounds to me (and I'm no expert) like a failure to plan for conditions. not the crew's fault, but someone somewhere along the line could have predicted this and added a unit.. or wait for conditions to improve.
Backshop I wonder how autonomous railcars would do in this situation, since this is the area that some proposed to use them in?
I wonder how autonomous railcars would do in this situation, since this is the area that some proposed to use them in?
Same laws of physics would apply.. likely they too would slide, although the emotive radio chatter would be absent..
Would a third locomotive on the back have helped? Sounds to me (and I'm no expert) like a failure to plan for conditions. not the crew's fault, but someone somewhere along the line could have predicted this and added a unit.. or wait for conditions to improve.
UlrichMy money is on ice on the rails/lack of sufficient adhesion to hold the train. If ice on shoes were the issue we would see alot more brake related accidents in the winter time as shoes ice up and fail... we would see wide spread failures, not just the odd one on a grade like this one.
Have never seen a condition where REPEATED wheel movement on the top of the rail didn't end up with wheels getting down to steel.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
My money is on ice on the rails/lack of sufficient adhesion to hold the train. If ice on shoes were the issue we would see alot more brake related accidents in the winter time as shoes ice up and fail... we would see wide spread failures, not just the odd one on a grade like this one.
jeffhergert MidlandMike There was a story in today's NewsWire about a CPKC train in icy Iowa that stalled on a hill and started sliding back downhill in emergency, headed to the BNSF mainline diamond in Ottumwa, with a BNSF train stopped across the diamond. The CP train finally stopped 20 feet short of the crossing, and the BN train had been warned and moved. https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/tense-moments-but-no-disaster-after-train-stalls-on-cpkcs-rutledge-hill-in-iowa/ From the Steel Highways railcam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L3CxHtsO5k Jeff
MidlandMike There was a story in today's NewsWire about a CPKC train in icy Iowa that stalled on a hill and started sliding back downhill in emergency, headed to the BNSF mainline diamond in Ottumwa, with a BNSF train stopped across the diamond. The CP train finally stopped 20 feet short of the crossing, and the BN train had been warned and moved. https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/tense-moments-but-no-disaster-after-train-stalls-on-cpkcs-rutledge-hill-in-iowa/
There was a story in today's NewsWire about a CPKC train in icy Iowa that stalled on a hill and started sliding back downhill in emergency, headed to the BNSF mainline diamond in Ottumwa, with a BNSF train stopped across the diamond. The CP train finally stopped 20 feet short of the crossing, and the BN train had been warned and moved.
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/tense-moments-but-no-disaster-after-train-stalls-on-cpkcs-rutledge-hill-in-iowa/
From the Steel Highways railcam.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L3CxHtsO5k
After stalling, if you don't apply the 'train brake'; GRAVITY for the WIN!
.
lenzfamily Jeff You have shades of Ed Blysard in your writing. Look forward to more from you.... Charlie Chilliwack BC
You have shades of Ed Blysard in your writing. Look forward to more from you....
Charlie
Chilliwack BC
Thanks for all the good thoughts. Especially being compared to Ed. I can't hold a candle to his writings. I miss him, and all the others we've lost.
I believe the HOS authorization is from the Corridor Manager, even if the ultimate decision is made higher up. All we get are initials of the authorizing officer and time. I believe the fine is $25000.00 for both the railroad and employee. Being authorized absolves the employee and the railroad pays both. However, the FRA can reduce or waive the fines if the reason truly is an emergency situation.
I believe this extreme weather falls into the true emergency definition.
PennsyBoomer MP173 Jeff and others:How difficult is it to authorize suspending the 12 hour rule? must permission be received from FRA or other organization, or is it an event which can be authorized by upper management subject to further review by the higher authorities (government) subject to fines or penalty?Ed It isn't so much suspending the 12 hour rule as it is authorizing exceptions as circumstances warrant. The motivating reason is so-called force majeure where extreme events present a hazard - and certainly to the crews who would otherwise be unable to reach their destination because of impassable roads or rails - a lack of transportation - and a further snowballing of events as this situation would become more critical if traffic does not move. It is not a casual decision. Crew busses have been utilized with a caboose or passenger coach between a double-ended set of power with which to haul dogcatch crews and distribute them, and provided they can reach stranded train(s). As I recall, documentation must be provided for each crew that violated specifying the circumstances, times and locations.
MP173 Jeff and others:How difficult is it to authorize suspending the 12 hour rule? must permission be received from FRA or other organization, or is it an event which can be authorized by upper management subject to further review by the higher authorities (government) subject to fines or penalty?Ed
Jeff and others:How difficult is it to authorize suspending the 12 hour rule? must permission be received from FRA or other organization, or is it an event which can be authorized by upper management subject to further review by the higher authorities (government) subject to fines or penalty?Ed
It isn't so much suspending the 12 hour rule as it is authorizing exceptions as circumstances warrant. The motivating reason is so-called force majeure where extreme events present a hazard - and certainly to the crews who would otherwise be unable to reach their destination because of impassable roads or rails - a lack of transportation - and a further snowballing of events as this situation would become more critical if traffic does not move. It is not a casual decision. Crew busses have been utilized with a caboose or passenger coach between a double-ended set of power with which to haul dogcatch crews and distribute them, and provided they can reach stranded train(s). As I recall, documentation must be provided for each crew that violated specifying the circumstances, times and locations.
During the final years I was working - the Contract Crew Hauling company(s) when a Winter storm approached would notify the carrier they WOULD NOT HAUL crew at or between specific terminals.
Jeff - Awesome writing and story. I cannot fathom having to do what you guys have to do out there in those kinds of conditions. Makes me glad I work on the Revenue Accounting side of things.
Great reading Jeff thank you.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
MP173Jeff and others: How difficult is it to authorize suspending the 12 hour rule? must permission be received from FRA or other organization, or is it an event which can be authorized by upper management subject to further review by the higher authorities (government) subject to fines or penalty?Ed
How difficult is it to authorize suspending the 12 hour rule? must permission be received from FRA or other organization, or is it an event which can be authorized by upper management subject to further review by the higher authorities (government) subject to fines or penalty?Ed
It is a decision made at the Superintendent level or higher. It is a open checkbook decision. The carrier will ultimately be FINED for every violation. I don't know what the currently penalty is.
tree68OT, but... Back in the day, our open cab (no windshield or other cover) 1932 fire department pumper had a heavy coat and mittens on the seat in the winter for the driver to don. Based on the fact that the coolant (likely just water) froze in the water jacket enroute to a call once, I'd say the coat and mittens were justified. There was just a post on the Deshler cam chat that a crew had no heat in a lead unit and was looking for a heater... One of our locomotives has a fantastic heater - almost too good. It's either coat and gloves or baking bread on the control stand...
I remember back in the day with the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) nice 60-70 degree day in the Fall. "Don't pack your coats your not going to need them the weather will be fine". Red flag in the Infantry when you hear that and I packed a coat, long johns, sweater, gloves, etc. Some pointed at me and laughed at how stuffed my ruck sack was. So we get out there and the temp drops to 17 degrees and was snowing at one point. A lot of people did not have coats because they believed weather can always be predicted with 100% accuracy (they learned). We had to cut our military exercise short because of the growing number of cold weather injuries.
I am sure similar stuff happens in the railroad industry all the time and this is why they prefer former military people for exactly that type of experience and knowing when to think things through.
Jeff:
Enjoyed that account of your recent trip.
I suggest you submit it to Trains for publication, including a map of the district and graph diagram of the grades.
That should be published.
Ed
Great writing Jeff.
tree68... One of our locomotives has a fantastic heater - almost too good. It's either coat and gloves or baking bread on the control stand...
One of our locomotives has a fantastic heater - almost too good. It's either coat and gloves or baking bread on the control stand...
There is nothing WORSE than an engine with a good heater, on 20 - 30 MPH track rocking back and forth with a bright sun glaring off newly fallen snow - to challenge everyone on the engine to stay awake.
There is a reason you bundle up babies warm and rock them to sleep - it works.
Once we were on a four-person MOW motor car between Lamar and La Junta with temp below zero. We had open stations at Prowers and Las Animas where we stopped to get warm.
CMStPnPBrought back memories of having to drive military vehicles with the windscreen down in all sorts of weather. Not a fun experience.
OT, but... Back in the day, our open cab (no windshield or other cover) 1932 fire department pumper had a heavy coat and mittens on the seat in the winter for the driver to don.
Based on the fact that the coolant (likely just water) froze in the water jacket enroute to a call once, I'd say the coat and mittens were justified.
There was just a post on the Deshler cam chat that a crew had no heat in a lead unit and was looking for a heater...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Thanks Jeff, and all honor to you.
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