NKP guy Gramp By the way, as the Baltimore and Ohio built west toward the Ohio River, which city did it seek to reach the River? Wheeling, Virginia was, I believe, the original goal of the B&O, reflecting the fact that rivers were the routes to the interior of the country at that time. If the other two cites that you're referencing are Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, I believe they were reached considerably later. The Erie Railroad used the Atlantic & Great Western RR to reach from western New York to Hamilton, Ohio and (via trackage rights) Cincinnati when it opened in 1863, because before the Civil War traffic patterns were largely north - south; the war put an end to that. Later, Chicago became the desired end point for eastern railroads because of, and shortly after the Civil War. The Erie built a subsidiary to reach Chicago from Marion, O., and the former trunk line to Hamilton lost much of its importance to that railroad. Chicago became the point from which to access the trans-Mississippi west, not because of the Pacific railroad at first, but because of its location on the Great Lakes. The harvests of the Plains made their way east largely by water; think of all those grain silos in Buffalo. The Civil War changed traffic patters from primarily north - south, to primarily east - west, and Cincinnati and New Orleans, to say nothing of Wheeling, fell behind Chicago in importance. Geography is destiny.
Gramp By the way, as the Baltimore and Ohio built west toward the Ohio River, which city did it seek to reach the River?
Wheeling, Virginia was, I believe, the original goal of the B&O, reflecting the fact that rivers were the routes to the interior of the country at that time. If the other two cites that you're referencing are Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, I believe they were reached considerably later.
The Erie Railroad used the Atlantic & Great Western RR to reach from western New York to Hamilton, Ohio and (via trackage rights) Cincinnati when it opened in 1863, because before the Civil War traffic patterns were largely north - south; the war put an end to that. Later, Chicago became the desired end point for eastern railroads because of, and shortly after the Civil War. The Erie built a subsidiary to reach Chicago from Marion, O., and the former trunk line to Hamilton lost much of its importance to that railroad. Chicago became the point from which to access the trans-Mississippi west, not because of the Pacific railroad at first, but because of its location on the Great Lakes. The harvests of the Plains made their way east largely by water; think of all those grain silos in Buffalo.
The Civil War changed traffic patters from primarily north - south, to primarily east - west, and Cincinnati and New Orleans, to say nothing of Wheeling, fell behind Chicago in importance. Geography is destiny.
The NYC, PRR, B&O and C&O were all built westward, in competition with canals such as the Erie Canal, C&O Canal and the James River Canal. The Michigan Central, Lake Shore & Michigan Southern (both later NYC) and the PRR (subsidiary) all reached Chicago by the 1850s. The Erie RR was first built to Dunkirk, NY on Lake Erie where it connected to boats for Detroit and west.
MidlandMike Back on the subject of questionable yard investment, UP was a partner in the Mid-Willamette Valley Intermodal Center in Millersburg, Oregon built last year. I see headlines that it has never had business, but the articles were behind a paywall. Does anyone know what's happening there?
Back on the subject of questionable yard investment, UP was a partner in the Mid-Willamette Valley Intermodal Center in Millersburg, Oregon built last year. I see headlines that it has never had business, but the articles were behind a paywall. Does anyone know what's happening there?
There’s was never an agreement to, how, or who will supply empty containers. None of the alliance’s have made a commitment. There’s also no import side that was developed.This facility being located on UP I-5 corridor, is actually in a good location for pickup or setout. The problem is UP is not going to stop and work this facility, due to the imbalance of export only..ConGlobal who contracted to operate the facility backed out.. Just an FYI ConGlobal is one of the largest domestic intermodal facility contract operators in the nation. For them to back out says quite a bit about the situation.
[quote user="diningcar"]
mudchickenSwink, Joes, Idalia, Two Buttes (many-cheeks), Walsh, Kit Carson, Cheyenne Wells, Peetz, Pritchett, Punkin Center, Last Chance et al need a new press agent. ( Diningcar is more of a Colorado native than me [I'm a resident alien?]- his old stomping grounds is full of obscure spots that would bewilder Denverites.) How about authentic dinosaur tracks in the Picketwire River bottom, about thirty- five miles south from La Junta; upstream from Higby abut ten miles.
How about authentic dinosaur tracks in the Picketwire River bottom, about thirty- five miles south from La Junta; upstream from Higby abut ten miles.
When you mention the original Big 10, I presume that you include the University of Chicago instead of Michigan State.
tree68 Having spent my early years in southeast Michigan, I consider MI as the "midwest." I will agree, though, that it's kind of confusing figuring out just how far west the "midwest" goes. OTOH, after a while it becomes the Great Plains, so it has an identity of its own. Similarly, Michigan is on the northern end of tornado alley, although most folks think of Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, etc, for that.
Having spent my early years in southeast Michigan, I consider MI as the "midwest." I will agree, though, that it's kind of confusing figuring out just how far west the "midwest" goes.
OTOH, after a while it becomes the Great Plains, so it has an identity of its own.
Similarly, Michigan is on the northern end of tornado alley, although most folks think of Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas, etc, for that.
GrampBy the way, as the Baltimore and Ohio built west toward the Ohio River, which city did it seek to reach the River?
[quote user="mudchicken"]Swink, Joes, Idalia, Two Buttes (many-cheeks), Walsh, Kit Carson, Cheyenne Wells, Peetz, Pritchett, Punkin Center, Last Chance et al need a new press agent. ( Diningcar is more of a Colorado native than me [I'm a resident alien?]- his old stomping grounds is full of obscure spots that would bewilder Denverites.)
I think of the Dakotas, eastern Montana, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, and eastern Colorado generally as the Plains. Ohio to Nebraska generally as the Midwest or Bread Basket. The Northeast as provincial or parochial.
By the way, as the Baltimore and Ohio built west toward the Ohio River, which city did it seek to reach the River? It ended up reaching it at at least three locations that I can think of.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Growing up in Cincinnati repeatedly had me wondering how we were in the midwest (and how come there is no mid-east?).
My parents, Brooklyn kids, were convinced that anyone from NYC and New England all were taught that the earth was flat and their geography books were written in the 1600's and never updated. As radio and TV became a thing, they hired New Yorkers to staff the network headquarters on the east coast.
(Similarly, the bulk of the Denver population has never been east or southeast of town. La Junta, Lamar, Springfield, Limon, Burlington, Fort Morgan, Sterling, et.al might as well be on Mars. They never leave the city limits except maybe to go skiing. They pack a lunch if they have to go to the east or southern burbs. Geographically challenged muggles.) .... and then there is the mountain timezone / flyover country thing....
Swink, Joes, Idalia, Two Buttes (many-cheeks), Walsh, Kit Carson, Cheyenne Wells, Peetz, Pritchett, Punkin Center, Last Chance et al need a new press agent. ( Diningcar is more of a Colorado native than me [I'm a resident alien?]- his old stomping grounds is full of obscure spots that would bewilder Denverites.)
NKP guy BaltACD Have always featured the Midwest is the area between the Appalachian Mountains and the Rocky Mountains. Is Ohio in "the Midwest"? The term for Ohio and "the Old Northwest" in the 1950's was the North Central States. The South Central States may be said to have included Kentucky and Tennessee; the rest was termed the South. The Midwest, to me, starts at the Mississippi and goes west to Colorado. The Dakotas? Midwest to me, but try telling them that. What about Texas? How can it be in the West and yet be south of Kansas and Nebraska? Are Texans actually Midwesterners? Of course not. In my experience I've met Canadians from the northern Ontario who seem to identify more (clothes, music, diet, politics) with Texas or Colorado culture than that of Toronto and east. Go figure.
BaltACD Have always featured the Midwest is the area between the Appalachian Mountains and the Rocky Mountains.
Is Ohio in "the Midwest"? The term for Ohio and "the Old Northwest" in the 1950's was the North Central States. The South Central States may be said to have included Kentucky and Tennessee; the rest was termed the South.
The Midwest, to me, starts at the Mississippi and goes west to Colorado. The Dakotas? Midwest to me, but try telling them that. What about Texas? How can it be in the West and yet be south of Kansas and Nebraska? Are Texans actually Midwesterners? Of course not.
In my experience I've met Canadians from the northern Ontario who seem to identify more (clothes, music, diet, politics) with Texas or Colorado culture than that of Toronto and east. Go figure.
Don't overlook that Ohio was formed out of the 'Northwest Territories' in 1803 if I remember my history correctly. Anything West of the Appalachians was considered the Wild West in that era. Gradually the Midwest expanded to the Rockies as more and more people migrated West in wagon trains and by the railroads as they built into the 'wilderness' areas of the West.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDHave always featured the Midwest is the area between the Appalachian Mountains and the Rocky Mountains.
Regarding "Midwest", as one who has lived his entire life in Indiana and Illinois; it is fascinating to drive west on I80 from Omaha to North Platte (a convenient overnight stay) and notice how farms evolve into ranches. Corn fields become pasture land with ponds.
Always wondered if those ponds held fish.
BTW...where is Michael Sohl when we need him (to discuss Milwaukee Road)?Miss those great days of discussion 12-15 years ago.
Ed
Vermontanan2 The Milwaukee route was built, as part of their branch line from Lewistown to Winnett. It features six miles of 2% grade, about 4 miles west of the “summit” (at Orange) and 2 miles east. On either side of the 2%, the grade is 1% or less. The east side does feature a nasty nearly 10 degree “S” curve to keep the grade at 2%, but the rail mileage was less than a mile longer than the current road mileage between Forest Grove and Heath. This suggests that a tunnel to maintain a 1% grade would need to be 4 to 5 miles in length and/or require a lengthened approach (or would require a steeper grade, at least as that of the Montana Eastern).
And the section between Forest Grove and Lewistown isn’t the only part of the alternate route via Great Falls that doesn’t make a lot of sense. The line from Lewistown to Great Falls (actually constructed) had numerous long high bridges, tunnels, many subgrade issues, and a nasty 9-mile 1.5% grade and lots of curvature between Pownal and Coffee Creek, not a lot better than a similar distance for the 1.66% eastward grade east of Butte to Pipestone Pass for which it was the alternative. And then even if a route over Cadotte Pass and the Continental Divide could have been constructed with only 1% grades each way (something else we’ll never know), this route still leads to/from Missoula and the horrible 1.7% grades (each way) of St. Paul Pass and its curvature and many many high bridges. It seems to be that this route overall could be in the category of “well, at least they didn’t do this…”!
The Milw line between Lewistown and Great Falls was not as well laid out as the GN's line and the Judith river bridge was an extravagant expense for the amount of traffic actually carried over the line.
The line through Cadotte Pass might have come in handy for developing a body of copper ore towards the headwaters of the Blackfoot river as Great Falls at least had infrastructure for smelting copper. With respect to Cadotte Pass vs Rogers Pass, the former required a shorter tunnel than the latter, and the elevation of the pass itself was not the decidng factor.
There were plans (but no money) for a 5 mile tunnel under St Paul Pass that would have eased most of the 1.7% grades and curvature. This wouldn't have solved the problem of the 2.2% grade between Beverly Jct and Boylston.
An oopsie on GN's part is the line between Seattle and Everett - between the waters of Puget Sound and cliffs of glacial till - though the Surf Line on the south end of San Clemente isn't much better.
Have always featured the Midwest is the area between the Appalachian Mountains and the Rocky Mountains.
You would be exceptionally unpopular with locals in Eastern Montana, Wyoming, and Colorado if you called them "Midwesterners." These people live in the West.
And it even spills over to states further east. Such is also the case for those in the Western parts of the Dakotas and Nebraska. Tourism in and around places like Theodore Roosevelt National Park in North Dakota and Deadwood in South Dakota is all about maintaining the "Wild West" mystique.
In North Dakota somewhat, but South Dakota specifically, the dividing line between the West and Midwest is the Missouri River. In South Dakota, everything is either "West River" or "East River" and there's a huge difference in arable land and precipitation. Cattle ranches west, farming east. Of the 35 or so shuttle grain train facilities in South Dakota (110-car unit trains), only four are "West River" and these are very close to either North Dakota or the Missouri River.
While Western South Dakota really is in the West and looks the part, lots of places want to be in the West and aren't. Fort Worth, Texas touts itself as "Where The West Begins," but it's only as far west as Jamestown, in Eastern North Dakota, and gets about as much rain annually as Seattle.
Erik_Mag The Milwaukee line ... This line was intended to be part of a short cut to Great Falls from the east, which would also have been part of through connection west via Caddotte's pass.
Nearby Rogers Pass was about 500' lower. What would have made Caddotte's Pass a more preferred choice?
(1) One hopes that the railroads hold onto some rational thought, long term planning and common sense (rapidly disappearing) on locations that accomodate longer trains and generous elbow room for lighter geometry track and clearances. The fear is the corporate suites where the financial low-life and the real estate get-rich-fast lowlifes are looking to make a fast buck by what they consider to be surplus property. Operating bubbas scream and howl every time a track is retired, even if it was only good for end-cab switchers and 40 ft. boxcars. The places where you can create space in an urban environment to start with a clean slate without huge land acquisition purposes and minimal NIMBY local government interference are pretty much gone. In the present, the R/E arms of at least 4 of the Cls 1's are clueless and are focussed on short term gain to the detriment of the operating railroad.
(2) Eric & Monty's comment needs to be stated with an asterisk or a caveat based on the Milwaukee PCE's late arrival after 1900 (nominally 1905-1909). There was federal grant right of way on the line, but it was not pre-1872 grant R/W (Checkerboard plus 400' wide corridor; alternate even or odd sections out to a 10 or 20 mile limit). It was some form of 1872-75 grant R/W [nominally 100-200 wide with extra width for station grounds]and only applied to non-patented vacant land held by the government...Which by 1900-1908 was very little where the railroads wanted to run. Most had been absorbed by timber companies, homesteaders, adjoining railroads et al that had to finalize their claims by 1902-04 or risk losing those rights by federal rule. If you look at GLO tract books (Or BLM Historical Index (HI) and Master Title Plats (MTP), the mad scramble by UP, NP, GN, OR&N, SP and others is clearly evident. The blanket/ over-generalized comments/assertion on GN not using land grants could stand a fact check - how do they suppose the railroads got across vacant land still in government possession w/o a patent?
Running your railroad through somebody else's checkerboard was a nightmare.
CMStPnP Maybe yes maybe no. I firmly believe it was the method in how it was built and the decisions made about it later on that sunk it's fate. Sure the GN had better grades and all but another part of GN's success was how it was built. It had a lot more land grants than the Milwaukee, it built far more extensively in the West than Milwaukee. GN built into Canada, and the inside gateway to California, that competed in part with Southern Pacific.
CMStPnP A lot more branch lines than GN in the Midwest too. GN was slimmer in branch lines and I believe sold a few off, early on that were considered excess.
Erik_Mag The PCE alignment between Mobridge and Harlowton was pretty well done, and the Milwaukee line between Lewisto(w)n and Grass Range with a tunnel at the summit would have been better than the GN line which would have had two tunnels, albeit shorter than what would have been on the Milwaukee line. The Milwaukee line as built did not have the summit tunnel. This line was intended to be part of a short cut to Great Falls from the east, which would also have been part of through connection west via Caddotte's pass.
Reading Johnston's book on the Milwaukee's PCE, the story of Anaconda's role in the PCE reminded me of Myrick's history of the El Paso & Southwestern. Namely that Anaconda, as with the case with Phelps Dodge, wanted more competition in rail service.
The PCE alignment between Morbridge and Harlowton was pretty well done, and the Milwaukee line between Lewiston and Grass Range with a tunnel at the summit would have been better than the GN line which would have had two tunnels, albeit shorter than what would have been on the Milwaukee line. The Milwaukee line as built did not have the summit tunnel. This line was intended to be part of a short cut to Great Falls from the east, which would also have been part of through connection west via Caddotte's pass.
I think of the PCE as being the same late-era 'Standard-Oil-money funded' sort of project as the Virginian or the Key West Extension, with construction adjusted (a stronger word could certainly be used if desired) to accommodate associated interests and concerns. The usual refinancings or sqeezing out of early investors should have taken place at multiple times -- but the principal stockholder interest made sure that didn't happen (which would have sterilized at least a large part of the stranded costs). It was built to be operated as a single-track railroad for comparatively light, fast trains, arguably ideal for silk traffic, and was ill-suited to be rebuilt into a proper railroad even for CTC operation with all the line and grade corrections that, for example, ATSF engaged in. Likewise the obvious investment-that-should-have-made-the-greatest-difference, the bridging of the 'gap' between the electrified districts, could never seem to be financed... in my opinion there was a long time past the general end of the electric-railroad craze, indeed past the introduction of early road diesels, that it would have made eminent sense.
If the ATSF wound up with competitive problems because it was a mandatory 90mph railroad in an era that came not to value 90mph speed at the cost required, the PCE was slower and less well engineered with most of the same loss in perceived advantage.
I'd have liked to see what would have happened if the eastern extension had been given the necessary improvements for load and speed, and the PCE used as a container bridge line feeding it, at the same time that the railroad shucked its vast investment in obsolete branch and agricultural lines. This is not quite the same niche that MRL profitably occupied, but it might have proven similarly valuable for 'adaptive re-use' if preserved, much as MRL now has.
Of course I'm still bitter about losing the CASO, and the A&S together with all the infrastructure from Morrisville west, but it would be like the old man shaking fists at clouds to comment on them now...
How about the best 'overall' investment? I submit the 'Williams -Crookton Arizona 44 mile line change Santa Fe accomplished in 1959-1960. The original 1884 line had curve, grade and tunnel constraints requiring speeds of twenty MPH, or less.
Today's BNSF southern 'Transcon' through this location has maximum 1% grades and one degree curves. Rock excavations exceeded 100 feet and fills were of over 100 feet. Amtrak's #3 and #4 may do 90 MPH if desired and freight 70 MPH. The total cost was about twenty million dollars.
Since G3 was the outcome of community protest. I probably would've canned the project. UP finally got it right by expanding G2, and they're not done yet. Eventually G2 will expand across more of the flat yard at Proviso pushing remaining blocking to G3.
UP still uses Global 3 as a block swapping yard. Every time I pass I see two or three trains there or nearby. The place is busy.
Great Northern did not get federal land grants when its Pacific Coast line was built.
When Global 3 opened in 2003, the world was a different place. The shipping world has evolved since then.
While the West Coast ports are always going to be busy, competition from the ever-expanding Prince Rupert and Roberts Bank Deltaport have changed traffic patterns to Chicago and the Midwest.
Oakland-Alameda is steady but is rarely mentioned in growth conversations.
Seattle-Tacoma is also steady but BNSF has made steady investments in the Northern Transcon to improve capacity, and if they ever clear Stampede Tunnel for doublestacks will continue to be very competitive to Chicago and the Midwest.
UP intermodal to Mexico with all the near shoring will continie to grow.
Obviously UP feels has determined Global 1 and 2 is sufficient to handle IM to the West Coast and Global 4 is best positioned to handle their USMCA traffic and has room to grow.
I wonder about that whole TRAINS article. As the old adage goes...."hindsight is 20/20". Investments in a company are a lot like stock investments sometimes. I particulary question the article entry that the Milwaukee Road Pacific Extension never should have been built. I love to beat that dead horse to death.
Maybe yes maybe no. I firmly believe it was the method in how it was built and the decisions made about it later on that sunk it's fate. Sure the GN had better grades and all but another part of GN's success was how it was built. It had a lot more land grants than the Milwaukee, it built far more extensively in the West than Milwaukee. GN built into Canada, and the inside gateway to California, that competed in part with Southern Pacific. GN also did some mainline revisements over Marias Pass. Milwaukee Road did none of that and took on a lot of debt that pushed it into bankruptcy more than once after construction (which probably had an impact with funding follow on route revisements). Additionally, not much as far as Western line devlopement compared with GN. A lot more branch lines than GN in the Midwest too. GN was slimmer in branch lines and I believe sold a few off, early on that were considered excess.
My view is the PE could have been a lot more successful if the construction wasn't as rushed and did not exceed the budget as it had. Additionally, Milwaukee could as well have trimmed down a lot of it's Midwestern branch line network a lot earlier than it did and moved more aggressively to compete in the far West. I still do not know if it would have made it. However, can't say it never should have been built or it was a mistake. It is true it ended up being a financial albatross though.
I am sure from the inside the UP decision to build the intermodal site where it did made sense at the time as did the PE of the Milwaukee Road.
I've always heard that UP wouldn't pay more for the extra mileage the draying required to Chicago and environs. The truckers avoided doing business through Rochelle.
Rochelle may not be an intermodal terminal, but it's still used for block swapping between trains. It almost became a home terminal for trains heading for Iowa.
About 20 years ago, the UP served Section 6 notices on all concerned about moving home crew terminals from Boone, Clinton, and Des Moines Iowa to Rochelle. The UP wished to establishe a Rochelle to Missouri Valley IA pool for the most important intermodal trains. Rochelle to Boone, Rochelle to Mason City IA, and a Rochelle to Des Moines, IA pools for all traffic. Negotiations resulted in the Rochelle to Boone pool to have the home terminal remain at Boone. All others to be Rochelle. East of Rochelle they would use crews to take trains to the various Chicago yards and interchange points with other railroads.
Nothing every happened. The talk about reshuffling runs lasted maybe a year at most. At the time it was probably an unrealistic goal. The biggest problem running through Clinton IA is the Mississippi River drawbridge. When the river is open for navigation, the delay to through trains would be too costly (time wise) for running such high mileage pools. At the time, just the Boone to Clinton crews were taking about 11 hours to make it. Often, they would not and need to be dog caught just short of Clinton. Besides the bridge opening up, congestion the closer a train got to the Chicago metro area stopped trains waiting to get in. I remember several times hearing that every parking spot that would hold a train was filled between Clinton and Proviso. And that was when trains were of a "normal" size.
Keeping Boone as home terminal for the one pool, which would've been the largest one, may or may not have kept me from having to move to Illinois. I don't know where I would've ended up with my seniority at that time. Besides my own district, the Illinois seniority district would've been included in the extended runs to Iowa on a mileage equation basis. At the time I was glad they dropped the idea. The last few years, I now think it might've been better had we all been moved to Rochelle back then.
Jeff
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