The Moffat Tunnel lease for UP expires on January 6, 2025.
Jim Vena has recently become CEO of UP - reputation for efficiency among other things.
Routing traffic to and from Denver via Wyoming has been bandied about on occasion over the years.
An Officers Special recently traverses the former Denver & Rio Grande Western.
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Hmmm. Likely much ado about nothing.
I have alway wondered why it is necessary to have an 11 car Inspection train? How many 'inspectior' are invited on an Inspection Train? How many 'inspectors' have seats in the 'theatre car' that views where the train has been.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Yes! And who makes the popcorn in the theater car? Maybe Lance Fritz? I bet they use coconut oil and real butter, though.
At the NYS Fair, we were allowed to set up a display in one of the local club's historic cars. It was at one time an office car for the DRGW. Small obs area, an office, two staterooms, dining room, "servant's" quarters and a kitchen.
It was apparently used chiefly by MOW supervisors, as opposed to the CEO.
Still, it's probably indicative of the facilities on the UP OCS - theater car, dining car, probably a sleeper or two, some coaches, dome, offices, the HEP car.
Of course, local dignitaries are often invited on such trains, and I'm sure they are treated well.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68At the NYS Fair, we were allowed to set up a display in one of the local club's historic cars. It was at one time an office car for the DRGW. Small obs area, an office, two staterooms, dining room, "servant's" quarters and a kitchen. It was apparently used chiefly by MOW supervisors, as opposed to the CEO. Still, it's probably indicative of the facilities on the UP OCS - theater car, dining car, probably a sleeper or two, some coaches, dome, offices, the HEP car. Of course, local dignitaries are often invited on such trains, and I'm sure they are treated well.
My mother died in 1968. My Dad was Asst. General Manager in Pittsburgh at the time. The General Manager made his private car available to my father and I to go to Baltimore and return for my Mother's funeral and internment. A private car is a deluxe means of travel.
On normal railroad Inspection trips, you will have senior officials from all the departments involved in the movement of trains (Operations, MofW, Mechanical, Signals). As the train moves over the railroad, the Division heads of each of those area of specialization will join the train to ride over their territory and respond to any questions that come their way. Chief Dispatchers were expected to publish a line up of all the trains the Inspection Train would meet or overtake peiodically during the trip.
With railroad only personnel on a Inspection Train, I still don't see the need for 11 cars.
Possibly shippers and/or state and municipazlity officials were aboard?
Use of the opportunity to move equipment?
daveklepperPossibly shippers and/or state and municipazlity officials were aboard? Use of the opportunity to move equipment?
There are two types of inspection trips, one is for the carrier, the other for industrial customers.
In general terms, inspection trips for carrier purposes will be to review the systems main traffic lines for both enhancement and retrenchment possibilities.
The customer inspection trips are for a more limited purpose of 'showing off' company land for industrial development to the customers benefit. The carriers participants in such a undertaking will be from among the marketing and industrial development officials as opposed to mostly operations officials.
Carriers business car fleets are normaly stored at a single location where employees with the required skills to maintain the cars are kept. Those outside the carrier rarely have any idea why such trains are being operated and whether they are actually occupied during their movement.
(1) No secret that the UP is willing to sell off the Tennessee Pass line. (Even with the misguided monkeywrenching efforts of Eagle County figured-in and the Rio Grande Pacific and Colorado Pacific (Solkiev) ups and downs figured-in)
(2) UP leased its lines south of Denver to BNSF in 2015. BNSF now maintains and dispatches those lines. South Denver to Pueblo, Pueblo to NA Jcn.(Old MP)...the remnants of the Rock at Colorado Springs and C&S Minnequa to Walsenburg are question marks, but have been offered up in the past (no takers) along with the KP line Denver to Salina KS. UP still operates the trains on these that survive.
Traffic patterns come and go.
kgbw49Routing traffic to and from Denver via Wyoming has been bandied about on occasion over the years.
The KP was upgraded to handle the slower traffic (coal trains and merchandise freights) to free-up the UP transcon for higher priority freight and the westbound loads) ...they pretty much ran out of room to expand that transcon without great additional expense.
timz kgbw49 Routing traffic to and from Denver via Wyoming has been bandied about on occasion over the years. Didn't most eastward traffic to Denver continue to run via Wyoming after 1996?
kgbw49 Routing traffic to and from Denver via Wyoming has been bandied about on occasion over the years.
Didn't most eastward traffic to Denver continue to run via Wyoming after 1996?
My bad. I was not specific enough. I meant traffic on the Moffat Route through the Rockies between Denver and Sslt Lake City.
Could it end up being a Watco or Genesee & Wyoming operation?
BaltACD I still don't see the need for 11 cars.
To get enough axles to activate the track circuits?
(Please don't take me seriously.)
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
What happens to the former D&RGW via Moffat is an interesting question. The route was viewed as a pariah by UP and was quickly downgraded aside from the coal business. Train spacing through Moffat tunnel was a severe capacity restraint while the Colorado coal busines was healthy, to the extent that many of the coal trains destined to/from the mines south of Grand Jct., CO traveled west to Salt Lake City and then east via Wyoming. Added to the number of coal trains moving through Denver and then up to Cheyenne and east on already congested railroad, the capacity improvements made on the KP line were necessary at the time to remove pressure from the territory between Cheyenne and Topeka via North Platte. But these coal train volumes have significantly decreased over the ensuing years. I don't know if there is enough remaining business to warrant maintenance of the former D&RG as it seems just another Raton Pass line for Amtrak aside from the occasional coal train and whatever BNSF runs via trackage rights. UP's Overland route has so sorely deteriorated in volume that capacity through Wyoming does not seem to warrant a safety valve.
A BN-DRGW-WP or SP route was a viable path for traffic before the 90s mergers and one wonders if BNSF has anything to gain from more of an interest in the Colorado route, yet it would still be hemmed in west of SLC with a trackage rights arrangement, unless WP were sold by UP as well. But, let's face it, divesture of assets is one of the last recourses vs. building America, which UP seems to have lost interest in. Just building a lot of 'best this and that' blather, I'm afraid.
I'm surprised that no one has brought up anything about the opposition to renewing the lease for railroad use. It's been discussed on other sites.
While I haven't followed it closely, apparently there are nimby and environmental types opposed to renewal. They are worried about future oil trains. I think from the proposed new development in the Uinta Basin.
Others have said there isn't too much worry about those trains. The oil that would be shipped is more of a solid before refining. That any accidental release would be easy to contain and clean up because it isn't a liquid.
I don't know, just what I've read.
Jeff
PennsyBoomerA BN-DRGW-WP or SP route was a viable path for traffic before the 90s mergers and one wonders if BNSF has anything to gain from more of an interest in the Colorado route, yet it would still be hemmed in west of SLC with a trackage rights arrangement, unless WP were sold by UP as well. ...
The CB&Q-D&RGW-WP route is only 50 miles shorter than BNSF's Southern Transcon-San Joaquin route to the San Fran Bay Area, and its slower, so BNSF might not be interested in it for a thru route. My undestanding for there trackage rights over UP was to preserve competition in the Salt Lake area. UP could simply transfer the trackage rights to their Overland Route and sever the Moffat Route. With dying local business on the Moffat Route in central Colorado, plus growing local opposition to the rail line's potential for hazardous cargo spills, things are not looking rosey for our beloved Rio Grande Route.
PennsyBoomer Train spacing through Moffat tunnel was a severe capacity restraint while the Colorado coal busines was healthy, to the extent that many of the coal trains destined to/from the mines south of Grand Jct., CO traveled west to Salt Lake City and then east via Wyoming.
Train spacing through Moffat tunnel was a severe capacity restraint while the Colorado coal busines was healthy, to the extent that many of the coal trains destined to/from the mines south of Grand Jct., CO traveled west to Salt Lake City and then east via Wyoming.
Please elaborate on the train frequency here. Moffat tunnel can host about 26 trains a day, dictated by tunnel flush and whether the train is loaded or empty. Since most of the traffic during the peak of the 2010s was coal traffic and other traffic amounted to maybe only 6 trains (Amtrak, 1 freight each way for UP and BNSF on average), that suggests maybe 20 coal trains (loaded and empty) through the tunnel. "Many" of the coal trains from the Grand Jct. area going west is a vague term, but this sounds like a HUGE volume of coal traffic on the route overall, something akin to in excess of 30 coal trains daily originating and terminating at Colorado mines. This seems a bit excessive.
Also, it should be noted that mileage from Grand Jct. to Denver via Moffat tunnel is only 30% that of via Salt Lake City and Wyoming (275 miles vs. 909), and mileage from Grand Jct. to Cheyenne via Denver via Moffat tunnel is only 47% that of mileage via Salt Lake City and Wyoming (381 miles vs. 815). So that's quite the expensive detour.
Now, running trains on a route hundreds of miles longer than the direct route is not unheard of, but it's usually done to achieve a route with superior operating characteristics. In this case, the westward climb to Soldier Summit (2.4%) is even steeper than the eastward approach to Moffat Tunnel (2%). Also, the Wasatch Grade east of Ogden is over 1.1% and at Sherman Hill, not everything can use track 3 and its .8% grade.
The Salt Lake City routing was exceptionally expensive coal traffic overall must have been phenomenal to overload Moffat to the extent that "many" of the trains would take this incredibly circuitous route. Elaboration should be appreciated.
--Mark Meyer
FRA crossing data provides some insight. From the late 1970s until 2012 crossings near Moffat were listed at 18 trains per day. This was probably only a rough indicator of the actual number. During 2016, the number dropped to 8. It rose to 11 during 2017-2019, but then dropped to 7, where it now stands. Train counts are lower west of Grand Junction.
- Ed Kyle
Vermontanan2Please elaborate on the train frequency here.
Following the closure of Tennessee Pass and elimination of the old Hoisington Sub as a through route toward Kansas City, additional coal traffic was brought through Moffat at a time when business from the mines in northern Colo. was booming. I don't have daily train counts, however, slots were planned based upon what was contemplated and some of this overflow due to the tunnel and congestion in Denver terminal itself resulted in "long way" detours. Empty sets were the most frequently detoured although some loaded movements made the trip, Soldiers Summit notwithstanding. My use of the word "many" is a cumulative reference, as there was no default detour routing and it occurred as necessary - perhaps once or twice a day, other times not at all.
The sudden influx of traffic owing to the Tenn Pass closure put severe stress upon the Moffat Tunnel route for many years, even as manifest traffic was removed to the Wyoming main. During the meltdown years, manifest traffic also detoured with trains being run-through to other yards for classification.
It really did not have much to do with efficiency. In the late 90s there could be anywhere from 20-40 eastbound manifests held out of North Platte - from Las Vegas to Cheyenne - with more enroute and others "held in" for power. And if you can't depart 'em, you can't arrive 'em. And coal trains provide energy, thus they cannot be held indefinitely as were many manifests. Thus sometimes they had to go, regardless of an ideal route.
All in all it was a very bizarre situation, and that was repeated at many points across the system for years - exacerbated by everything from power to crew shortages to capacity issues.
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