If the OP would like to try again to get an answer to his question, he can start a new thread. This one's signal-to-noise ratio has degraded, so I'm locking it.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
I was thinking the same thing Jeff mentioned. His "passenger accomodations" was in the caboose of a local freight for part of the journey. Even us jaded railfans, might call that riding a freight train.
Unless someone is a professional or amateur expert on something, they often use terms incorrectly, as I pointed out earlier. I work in taxes, and find it interesting how many times people say "I got a return" when they meant "I got a refund" (You file a return to claim a refund.) You could (and I suspect someone has) write a book with all the inaccuracies people have written in books and songs and TV shows and movies about trains and boats and airplanes. So if Twain got a wood passenger car on the end of a string of freight cars, he might well have called it a "freight train" since to him, a non-railroader, a train with some freight cars in it was a freight train (as opposed to being a train with ALL freight cars).
Again, why would a famous wealthy man 'hobo' on a freight train in the middle of the night? Unless there's more info, like him talking about riding in the caboose or something, the most logical idea is that what he called a freight train was really a mixed train.
Dunno why the argument about whether his letter was true. The guy asked for info about the trip as Twain described it; if Twain actually rode a magic carpet, we can't tell the guy anything about that. So we assume the letter is correct and base our speculations on it. No doubt the guy knows our speculations are speculations, and he isn't expecting more.
Backshop It was so nice and quiet around here for the past few weeks...
It was so nice and quiet around here for the past few weeks...
Yes, too quiet. Apparently, people have been itching for a feud.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I don't know if we on the forums have defined a "Golden Age" of railroads. I've seen it defined as from about 1890 to 1910. So if that's the era you're thinking aout, you want info on pre-1900, really 1890, era railroads.
You say your info was in a letter to his wife. An actual letter or a published article titled something like, "A letter to my wife?" If an actual letter, we have to assume what he wrote is factual, not for the general public.
The routing mentioned sounds like the Milwaukee Road and predecessors/subsidiaries. (In that era it would have been the "St. Paul Road.") It actually could have been a freight train because in the early eras (and later eras, too) some local freight trains carried passengers on the caboose. That would be from Rockford to Davis Jct. Catching a train with sleepers would be plausible. I would guess the next change location would be Savanna. Both stations would be stops that a train carrying sleepers would most likely stop at. The time between those stops seems a little long, even for that era. A train with sleepers would be a little higher priority train with limited stops. However, his times could merely be when he departed with no allowance for layovers when waiting for connections.
Longer times on all stop local trains (passenger, freight or mixed) would be expected.
Jeff
EuclidWhat does not make sense is that, in your quest to discover what Clemens really meant, why are you so certain that he did not mean he rode a freight train as he claimed he did?
I'm not trying to discover anything.
A question was asked. Several people have made suggestions in an effort to answer that question.
I don't recall that anyone has said Clemens didn't ride a freight train.
It was suggested that he may well have ridden a mixed train as one possibility. No one has insisted that was, in fact, the case. Only one possibility.
There seems to have been developed a mountain where there was only ever a molehill. Most of us have gone with the molehill.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Euclid That doesn't make any sense. Literary license notwithstanding. Clemens also wrote satire - he may have been denigrating (satirically) your average, run-of-the-mill local passenger train as a "freight train," as opposed to the luxury trains of the time. To truly interpret what he wrote, one must consider it in the context of the rest of the story. There are many stories that have been written over the years that were not completely historically accurate, nor were they intended to be. They were, rather, the sum of a number of experiences. Such may be the case here. Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn were not actual people - but their activities were likely historically relatively accurate (a case to that effect has been made). And both stories were satirical in nature - commentaries on the times. I'm not sure it can be further explained.
Euclid That doesn't make any sense. Literary license notwithstanding.
Clemens also wrote satire - he may have been denigrating (satirically) your average, run-of-the-mill local passenger train as a "freight train," as opposed to the luxury trains of the time. To truly interpret what he wrote, one must consider it in the context of the rest of the story.
There are many stories that have been written over the years that were not completely historically accurate, nor were they intended to be. They were, rather, the sum of a number of experiences.
Such may be the case here.
Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn were not actual people - but their activities were likely historically relatively accurate (a case to that effect has been made). And both stories were satirical in nature - commentaries on the times.
I'm not sure it can be further explained.
Most writers are BS artists. Ernest Hemingway said that he had sex with Josephine Baker for example. For another the writer George V. Higgins wrote about Western Massachusetts in a novel and he made up towns that didn't exist. After what has been written here, I think that Clemens rode a mixed train rather than a freight.
I had a teacher in school who had us read the part of Huckleberry Finn where he tells how to get ride of a wart. "Bury it at the cross-roads at midnight" as I recall. We were all supposed to think that Huck was an ignoramus. Him faking his own death and making it look like his Pap did it is not the work of a stupid person.
EuclidThat doesn't make any sense. Literary license notwithstanding.
tree68 Euclid The question is not so much about what Clemens rode. It is more about how people here, over a century later, can know more about what Clemens rode than what Clemens knew. And that's the point. What Clemens knew, and what he wrote, may be two different things... Literary license.
Euclid The question is not so much about what Clemens rode. It is more about how people here, over a century later, can know more about what Clemens rode than what Clemens knew.
And that's the point. What Clemens knew, and what he wrote, may be two different things... Literary license.
EuclidThe question is not so much about what Clemens rode. It is more about how people here, over a century later, can know more about what Clemens rode than what Clemens knew.
tree68 Euclid Well you don’t know what Clemens rode, And neither do you. We're offering plausible explanations for the time. None of which seem to suit you. Like I said - Clemens was a writer of fiction. It's not at all inconceivable that he bent the facts to fit his storyline. Literary license.
Euclid Well you don’t know what Clemens rode,
And neither do you.
We're offering plausible explanations for the time. None of which seem to suit you.
Like I said - Clemens was a writer of fiction. It's not at all inconceivable that he bent the facts to fit his storyline. Literary license.
Unfortunately, the OP has yet to say when the letter was written and/or when the trip happened, other than 'pre-1920s' (Clemens died in 1910).
By the 1870s, his writing had made him a wealthy man. I can't quite see him in say 1885, as a well-off 50 year old, deciding to 'bo it' and take the dangerous ride on a freight car running through the night, open to the elements and the constant coal smoke from the engine ahead. The suggested alternative, that his "freight train" was really a mixed train - perhaps 6-8 freight cars followed by one or two wood passenger cars - makes the greatest sense.
Writers, songwriters, news reporters etc. have often not been experts on railroading, and used incorrect terms or used terms inaccurately. We've all seen news stories on TV talking about how a "cargo train" blew it's "whistle" at a grade crossing before it hit a truck, causing the train's "tanker cars" and "flatbed cars" to derail.
People in Clemens' day rode trains often; it doesn't mean he was an expert on railroads and their terminology.
p.s. I'd question the mention of 50-100 car freight trains during that time too. Before air brakes were required on all cars (which took affect in 1900), freight trains were of necessity short and slow.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid tree68 Euclid Why do you conclude he was referring to a mixed-train when he stated it was a freight train? Clemens was a writer, not a railroader. Many local trains of that era were, in fact, mixed trains. But why this tone of doubt about what he said he did? It does not take a railroader to know the difference between a freight train and a mixed train. I understand the OP found the reference in a letter Clemens wrote and not in one of his fictional works. But challenging what he said requires suspicion. Where does the suspicion come from in these simple matters of the small talk of a personal letter? It is not like he is claiming something that is unbelievable. The reality that in Clemmons time, most freight trains were infact 'mixed' trains as the freight trains would stop at every station along a line. Less than car load freight was the name of the game in the smal 'towns' that existed during that period of time. Passengers would board the 'freight' train to ride to the next place that a real Passenger train would pick up and discharge passengers. Freight trains as we know them today were a long time in being developed. Well you don’t know what Clemens rode, and he said he rode a freight train. And while it is true that freight trains back then were not as long as they are today, there were many freight trains running 50-100 cars long by 1900, without any mixed train style passenger accommodation. Also there was a practice of pure freight train brakemen and conductors collecting “Bo money” from technically illegal riders as a fee per division to ride under the informal, off-the -record permission of the train crew. This money collected by crew was not turned over to the company, but the companies generally knew of the practice and looked the other way. The money was divided up among the crew and handled like a business. There were also a lot of riders that did not want to pay the Bo money. So they attempted to hide from the brakemen and conductor, who would throw the free loaders off if they refused to pay.
BaltACD Euclid tree68 Euclid Why do you conclude he was referring to a mixed-train when he stated it was a freight train? Clemens was a writer, not a railroader. Many local trains of that era were, in fact, mixed trains. But why this tone of doubt about what he said he did? It does not take a railroader to know the difference between a freight train and a mixed train. I understand the OP found the reference in a letter Clemens wrote and not in one of his fictional works. But challenging what he said requires suspicion. Where does the suspicion come from in these simple matters of the small talk of a personal letter? It is not like he is claiming something that is unbelievable. The reality that in Clemmons time, most freight trains were infact 'mixed' trains as the freight trains would stop at every station along a line. Less than car load freight was the name of the game in the smal 'towns' that existed during that period of time. Passengers would board the 'freight' train to ride to the next place that a real Passenger train would pick up and discharge passengers. Freight trains as we know them today were a long time in being developed.
Euclid tree68 Euclid Why do you conclude he was referring to a mixed-train when he stated it was a freight train? Clemens was a writer, not a railroader. Many local trains of that era were, in fact, mixed trains. But why this tone of doubt about what he said he did? It does not take a railroader to know the difference between a freight train and a mixed train. I understand the OP found the reference in a letter Clemens wrote and not in one of his fictional works. But challenging what he said requires suspicion. Where does the suspicion come from in these simple matters of the small talk of a personal letter? It is not like he is claiming something that is unbelievable.
tree68 Euclid Why do you conclude he was referring to a mixed-train when he stated it was a freight train? Clemens was a writer, not a railroader. Many local trains of that era were, in fact, mixed trains.
Euclid Why do you conclude he was referring to a mixed-train when he stated it was a freight train?
Clemens was a writer, not a railroader. Many local trains of that era were, in fact, mixed trains.
The reality that in Clemmons time, most freight trains were infact 'mixed' trains as the freight trains would stop at every station along a line. Less than car load freight was the name of the game in the smal 'towns' that existed during that period of time. Passengers would board the 'freight' train to ride to the next place that a real Passenger train would pick up and discharge passengers.
Freight trains as we know them today were a long time in being developed.
Also there was a practice of pure freight train brakemen and conductors collecting “Bo money” from technically illegal riders as a fee per division to ride under the informal, off-the -record permission of the train crew. This money collected by crew was not turned over to the company, but the companies generally knew of the practice and looked the other way. The money was divided up among the crew and handled like a business. There were also a lot of riders that did not want to pay the Bo money. So they attempted to hide from the brakemen and conductor, who would throw the free loaders off if they refused to pay.
I don't have any more idea about it that you do. Clemmons was the master of BS of his time! Stop trying to BS the BS Master!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
EuclidWell you don’t know what Clemens rode,
EuclidBut why this tone of doubt about what he said he did?
I got the impression that what was being questioned was the route, not the conveyance. Hence my comment about literary license.
EuclidWhy do you conclude he was referring to a mixed-train when he stated it was a freight train?
daveklepper By freight train, he was referring, of course, to a mixed-train. I'm a Samuel Clemens (Sp?) fan, FHe did visit the Holy Land and wroye the truth about conditions at the time.
By freight train, he was referring, of course, to a mixed-train.
I'm a Samuel Clemens (Sp?) fan, FHe did visit the Holy Land and wroye the truth about conditions at the time.
Why do you conclude he was referring to a mixed-train when he stated it was a freight train?
tree68 One must remember that Samuel Clemens was a writer, chiefly of fiction. While his travel accounts are likely based on fact, there is always the possibility of some artistic license...
One must remember that Samuel Clemens was a writer, chiefly of fiction. While his travel accounts are likely based on fact, there is always the possibility of some artistic license...
Indeed, I recently visited a location that Mr. Clemens wrote of in A Tramp Abroad. The thing is a scalding satire of overly dramatic mountaineering adventure in the high Alps. He leads a team of 154(!) men and 51 animals, which he describes as a magnificent sight stretching 3,122 feet as they grappled from Zermatt to the Riffelberg.
Zermatt is at 5,276 feet. Riffelberg is slope on the Gornergrat at around 8,450 feet. Do the math.
Depends on exactly when he was travelling - railroading in 1915 was quite a bit more advanced than 1870.
BTW IIRC Clemens' father was one of the first Railway Post Office clerks, on the first RPO line.
See the map on page 436 of the August 1895 Official Guide?
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=5c8bbcc0-af4d-4ae8-a354-ce43ad93747d
That's the only railroad that ran halfway directly from Rockford to Rock Island. But maybe he combined two railroads? Sure, maybe he did. But might as well investigate the Milwaukee Road first.
If you know the date, maybe we can look at a better Guide. Note that this one shows a train from Racine to Rock Island on page 444, at the wrong time of day.
I'm a big fan of Mark Twain also... I don't recall him writing much on his travels by train or of railroading in general, and I find this a bit surprising given that railroads were the up and coming technology of his day. He travelled to Canada as well..likely by train.. but nothing I've come across details his journeys.
According to 1916 Official Guide of the Railways (reprint) I can work backwards a bit.
Arrival in Rock Island might have been on train 29 a local which ran from Chicago to Davenport with stopes in just about every community. It arrived in Rock Island at 530am. At 230am it was scheduled to depart LaSalle, Il. Again this is the Rock Island.
How did he arrive in LaSalle from Rockford? Two possibilities...Illinois Central's Freeport to Centralia line ran thru LaSalle. My OG doesnt show a night passenger train on that line. Rockford to Freeport would have been possible as the IC ran freight and passenger on that line.
A second option would have been Chicago, Burlington and quincy (Burlington). Freight from Rockford to Flag Center then a passenger train to Aurora then a train to Streator with a stop in Lasalle. Given the timing, that option doesnt seem possible.
My guess is the IC freight to Freeport then to LaSalle and on the Rock Island.
Ed
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