oltmanndSo, maybe that yard congestion goes away, too?
I hear a lot of stories from various sources (including here on the forum) about trains being held out miles from their destinations because there is "no room at the inn." ECP isn't going to cure that.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
CSX RobertBraking distance scales with the square of the speed, so halving the braking distance would give about a 41% increase in speed.
oltmanndTrack conditions permitting, you could double restricted speed since ECP braking at lower speeds cuts stopping distance by more than half. (the higher the speed, the lower the advantage)
Braking distance scales with the square of the speed, so halving the breaking distance would give about a 41% increase in speed.
Overmod daveklepper A rapid sharp drop in train-line air pressure, that would execute an emergency stop by propagation of the pressure drop alone, must also activate the electrical\electronic emergency braking. It does already, on both systems. The immediate actuation of all emergency valves in the train simultaneously, rather than 'at the speed of sound in compressed air', is what produces the roughly 3% reduction in achieved stopping distance. I do not know whether providing an ECP emergency trip at each emergency valve, to be triggered when any valve in the train physically goes to emergency, or if the trainline pressure drops 'uncommanded' below a critical level, is part of current systems. A problem with it is that any sort of UDE instantly slams the train into full emergency without warning, but all the issues with brakes applying differently or slack condition still apply regardless of how quickly the valve modulates.
daveklepper A rapid sharp drop in train-line air pressure, that would execute an emergency stop by propagation of the pressure drop alone, must also activate the electrical\electronic emergency braking.
It does already, on both systems. The immediate actuation of all emergency valves in the train simultaneously, rather than 'at the speed of sound in compressed air', is what produces the roughly 3% reduction in achieved stopping distance.
I do not know whether providing an ECP emergency trip at each emergency valve, to be triggered when any valve in the train physically goes to emergency, or if the trainline pressure drops 'uncommanded' below a critical level, is part of current systems. A problem with it is that any sort of UDE instantly slams the train into full emergency without warning, but all the issues with brakes applying differently or slack condition still apply regardless of how quickly the valve modulates.
You're probably a lot less likely to pop cars off on curves due to long car/short car/empty/loaded disparities with ECP emergency application. But, that alone won't get you your ROI.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
mvlandsw BaltACD When I was still working CSX was instructing Engineers that Dynamic Braking was their primary form of braking and the use of air brakes was a secondary braking tool. I can only believe in the past 7 years that the use of air brakes has been incresingly discouraged. ECP or not, if you aren't using air in the first place there is absolutely no advantage to ECP. Except in an emergency application where all the brakes would apply at once instead of serially, eliminating the problems caused by severe slack action. Still probably not economically justifiable.
BaltACD When I was still working CSX was instructing Engineers that Dynamic Braking was their primary form of braking and the use of air brakes was a secondary braking tool. I can only believe in the past 7 years that the use of air brakes has been incresingly discouraged. ECP or not, if you aren't using air in the first place there is absolutely no advantage to ECP.
When I was still working CSX was instructing Engineers that Dynamic Braking was their primary form of braking and the use of air brakes was a secondary braking tool. I can only believe in the past 7 years that the use of air brakes has been incresingly discouraged. ECP or not, if you aren't using air in the first place there is absolutely no advantage to ECP.
Except in an emergency application where all the brakes would apply at once instead of serially, eliminating the problems caused by severe slack action. Still probably not economically justifiable.
If you are only going to look at ECP for it's effect on braking on each individual train, you are 100% correct.
tree68 oltmannd ...and by "really move" I don't mean higher track speeds. I mean less time stopped and going slow. So the train gets to its hold-out parking spot a little sooner...
oltmannd ...and by "really move" I don't mean higher track speeds. I mean less time stopped and going slow.
...and by "really move" I don't mean higher track speeds. I mean less time stopped and going slow.
So the train gets to its hold-out parking spot a little sooner...
Track conditions permitting, you could double restricted speed since ECP braking at lower speeds cuts stopping distance by more than half. (the higher the speed, the lower the advantage)
So, maybe that yard congestion goes away, too?
jeffhergert OldEngineman Dan posted: " If PTC turns out to be the thing that enabled a reduction in crew size, then it might - MIGHT - earn back it's cost some day." Well, since most road crews are just two guys now (engineer and conductor), you're saying that going to "engineer-only" crews will be the solution that permits PTC to "earn back its cost" ??? Not just one person, they're already chomping at the bit for no man crews. PTC and the EMS auto throttle move that goal so much closer. So they think. Jeff
OldEngineman Dan posted: " If PTC turns out to be the thing that enabled a reduction in crew size, then it might - MIGHT - earn back it's cost some day." Well, since most road crews are just two guys now (engineer and conductor), you're saying that going to "engineer-only" crews will be the solution that permits PTC to "earn back its cost" ???
Dan posted: " If PTC turns out to be the thing that enabled a reduction in crew size, then it might - MIGHT - earn back it's cost some day."
Well, since most road crews are just two guys now (engineer and conductor), you're saying that going to "engineer-only" crews will be the solution that permits PTC to "earn back its cost" ???
Not just one person, they're already chomping at the bit for no man crews. PTC and the EMS auto throttle move that goal so much closer. So they think.
Jeff
I think they are chasing the wrong goal! (again) A slow train with a "no man crew" is still a slow train. It consumes a huge number of locomotive and car hours to go "not very far".
How about trying to lengthen the crew districts by squeezing out all the time not moving or moving at resticted speed? Two men going 300 miles should be cheaper and more valuable than "no men" going 120 miles.
FWIW Amtrak's Autotrain does 800 miles on two crews over frt RR territory with max speed of 70 mph and "freight braking" system (no graduated release) and about 2 HP/ton.
tree68We can't forget good old inertia. No matter how quickly the shoes are applied to the wheels, a railcar is going to follow Newton's laws and keep right on going until the combined friction between the shoes, the wheels, and the rails is sufficient to have an effect on the car.
You're going to fail your Physics class! :-)
Brake shoe force develops pretty quickly. If that force is equal to 20% of the car's weight, than you're going to decelerate at 1/5g or 4 mph/sec. The weight of the car is irrelevant.
The reason trains "take a mile to stop" isn't inertia or train weight, it's that brake systems are set for empty cars. An empty that can do 4 mph/sec deceleration can only do 1 mph/sec loaded. If the brakes were set for loaded cars, that train could reduce stopping distance from 1 mile to 1/4 mile.
Overmod A problem with it is that any sort of UDE instantly slams the train into full emergency without warning, but all the issues with brakes applying differently or slack condition still apply regardless of how quickly the valve modulates.
We can't forget good old inertia. No matter how quickly the shoes are applied to the wheels, a railcar is going to follow Newton's laws and keep right on going until the combined friction between the shoes, the wheels, and the rails is sufficient to have an effect on the car.
I believe it's been reported that fifty cars derailed at East Palestine. If ECP had cut that number in half, there still would have been a spill and a fire.
And, I go back to the well-known video of the train struck by a tornado. It's very clear that the brake line had parted, which would initiate an emergency application throughout the train, yet the remainder of the train still piled into the trailing locomotive at a pretty good speed.
dpeltier Stopping distances are reduced by half? So what? At best this can make a very marginal difference in track capacity at a few chokepoints. At worst, the faster service breaking is literally never used, because fuel conservation practices already result in a train reducing its speed long before it reaches the minimum stopping distance to the next red signal. (Actually, at worst: engineers start to rely more on air braking and less on dynamics, which increases brake wear. I heard a rumor that was actually an observed phenomenon on ECP test trains.)
daveklepperA rapid sharp drop in train-line air pressure, that would execute an emergency stop by propagation of the pressure drop alone, must also activate the electrical\electronic emergency braking.
One feature that, to my knowledge, has not been included in Electric\electronic braking systems tested so far, but must be included is:
A rapid sharp drop in train-line air presure, that would execute an emergency stop by propgation of the pressure drop alone, must also activate the electrical\electronic emergency braking.
This wiould have mitigated both the Megantic and the East Palestine damages. Brakes should apply unbiformly under all conhditiond, including vedmergencies.
Erik_MagWith ECP, the required data rate isn't all that great,
Which should make it easier to pile on lots of other information, like onboard defect detection...
If you take PTC, ECP and DPU together you can have these things:
1. lighter freight cars with lower buff force requirement
2. eliminate time pumping air
3. automated brake testing
4. faster restricting speed
5. greatly reduced PU/SO times (see #2, #3)
6. reduced derailment risk - onboard health monitoring.
Which can mean longer crew districts, fewer locomotives in the fleet, fewer freight cars in the fleet, higher value of product.
Toss in route profile smoothing and electrification of heavy mainlines and you can really get things to move.
The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. RRs are currently having a nice "going out of business sale". PSR is really just a way to squeeze the last drops from declining carload franchise. Are there any leaders out there with any vision for this industry?
Overmod Mr. Peltier, what Mr. Oltmann is referring to is what's called 'powerline modulation' over the 220V electrical line required for current ECP. "Internet of Things" connections depended very heavily on some form of 120V 'home' powerline modulation in the years before pervasive WiFi and 4G/5G/LTE; before systems like Zigbee there was utility in implementing Salutation Protocol over powerline modulation so fhtat office equipment would 'configure itself' and interwork merely by being plugged in. Great strides in the technology have been made since the early Nineties!
Mr. Peltier, what Mr. Oltmann is referring to is what's called 'powerline modulation' over the 220V electrical line required for current ECP. "Internet of Things" connections depended very heavily on some form of 120V 'home' powerline modulation in the years before pervasive WiFi and 4G/5G/LTE; before systems like Zigbee there was utility in implementing Salutation Protocol over powerline modulation so fhtat office equipment would 'configure itself' and interwork merely by being plugged in. Great strides in the technology have been made since the early Nineties!
Power line modulation goes back a l-o-n-g way. One example appropriate for this forum (well maybe the MR forum) was GE's Astrac that used a high frequency burst to trigger the firing of an SCR to vary the speed of the locomotive.
There have been a lot of advances in low cost signal processing since the 1990's, which could make for a more robust modulation/detection scheme than was possible back then. With ECP, the required data rate isn't all that great, which means that it can use audio or low radio frequencies for the carrier(s) which will help in getting the signal through several thousand feet of cable and 100+ connectors. I think it should be mandatory that the EOT provide proof of connectivity.
CN and CP just missed a big opportunity as they and the grain companies purchased thousands of new grain hoppers over the past decade or so to replace the old cylindrical 4-bay 'Trudeau' fleet.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Implementation strategy?
Unit trains first. Easiest. Least valuable, but best place to hone the product.
Then intermodal. Relatively few cars - by A LOT. They tend to stay in chunks, so segregating fleet not as hard.
Loose cars...Very hard, but by the time we get the first two done, RRs will be primarily intermodal with botique car load business. Some combo of pass thru data connections on older cars, new cars with dual provision and retrofitting and block segregation and mixed mode trains using DPUs or "MOT"s might be a way forward. Requires quite a bit of operational modeling...
This is a long term project! A couple decades, at least, if they start now.
OvermodIn my opinion, while the attempt to mandate ECP for key trains was a laudable thing...
As the industry didn't move an inch forward on this at that time, anything to light a fire under them would have been a good thing. Pay back? Yeah, I doubt it, but that's not the point.
OvermodMr. Peltier, what Mr. Oltmann is referring to is what's called 'powerline modulation' over the 220V electrical line required for current ECP.
Yep. It's why the "state of the art" is obsolete. Also, a 100+, 60' "extension cords" running 220V plugged in end-to-end is a really terrible idea.
jeffhergertWith the difference in braking force between cars, ECP in emergency might not totally eliminate some severe slack action incidents.
I can see that if you don't have empty/load braking.
jeffhergertFor use dynamics first and then dynamics with air is preferred. However, they've relaxed what their definition of power or stretch braking is that allows using air when in higher throttle notches than before. There are still some in management that realize there are times when you need to use air when in power.
This is a good thing! The goal is get the stuff over the road in one piece. RRs are not "fuel savings" companies. Service first!
7j43k oltmannd dpeltier But the second biggest reason is this: economically, there were almost no advantages to the ECP system. Okay. That's what they said about PTC...and have now changed their tune. A workable ECP system gets you a whole host of other things with that data trainline. That's where the money is... It's a building block for faster average velocity, longer crew district railroading... Which is needed if the RRs have any real future. Ah. I see. The money is in the other things. And those other things are....? Ed
oltmannd dpeltier But the second biggest reason is this: economically, there were almost no advantages to the ECP system. Okay. That's what they said about PTC...and have now changed their tune. A workable ECP system gets you a whole host of other things with that data trainline. That's where the money is... It's a building block for faster average velocity, longer crew district railroading... Which is needed if the RRs have any real future.
dpeltier But the second biggest reason is this: economically, there were almost no advantages to the ECP system.
Okay. That's what they said about PTC...and have now changed their tune.
A workable ECP system gets you a whole host of other things with that data trainline. That's where the money is... It's a building block for faster average velocity, longer crew district railroading... Which is needed if the RRs have any real future.
Ah. I see. The money is in the other things.
And those other things are....?
Ed
Did you read the blog post? They're in there.
With the difference in braking force between cars, ECP in emergency might not totally eliminate some severe slack action incidents.
For use dynamics first and then dynamics with air is preferred. However, they've relaxed what their definition of power or stretch braking is that allows using air when in higher throttle notches than before. There are still some in management that realize there are times when you need to use air when in power.
In my opinion, while the attempt to mandate ECP for key trains was a laudable thing, and reminiscent of the original Esch Act strategy for rolling implementation of ATC for block signaling... the only case the FRA could make was one based on safety. And 3% improvement for over $3T was not enough 'safety' to make the trick work; we might as well have tried implementing Euclid's armored General Products #4 hulls. When actual scientific assessment of the ECP mandate was conducted in 2017, the idea was thrown out... not because of some supposed Trumpster meddling, but simply because the gains didn't justify either the expense or the risks during implementation.
What might be interesting is a 'creeping featurization' implementation of the power/data trainline combined with wireless/RF data fusion for 'breaks in the trainline' or contactless modem data transfer to 'passive' wiring. If QR and PM hadn't become mainstream kludges... that might get you a long way toward ECP-like actuation and release from one-pipe brakes with those modules every 10 to 20 cars in a consist.
I was talking about the AAR standard for ECP brakes that was developed in the late 1990's and implemented on some test trains in the 2000's. That standard did NOT support a "data bus" linking cars together, and from what I could glean, did not really have any extensibility built in. It is also the ONLY standard for ECP brakes that has been developed for North American freight trains at this time, and if there is a legal requirement to implement ECP brakes within a 5- or 10-year horizon, it will almost certainly be the basis of that effort, for lack of any alternatives.
I agree that the situation is somewhat analogous to PTC, but:
1.) PTC is a long way from paying for itself too. Yeah, it's nice to deliver track bulletins electronically. It's not worth billions and billions of dollars. If PTC turns out to be the thing that enabled a reduction in crew size, then it might - MIGHT - earn back it's cost some day.
2,) The benefits that we're starting to see from PTC were foreseen way before PTC was implemented. They just didn't justify the cost. By contrast, the benefits from ECP brakes are much less clear and much less compelling, while the cost of implementation is far larger.
I agree that you could do a lot with a data link between freight cars, but most of them aren't worth that much in the big picture, and some of them can be accomplished with other technologies. Furthermore, there isn't actually any reason why you need ECP brakes to implement a data link along the train. It would be much easier to design a non-vital data link to run all the nifty on-board sensors and whatnot than to design a safety-critical, failsafe braking system.
Dan
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.