OldEnginemanThe line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another?
It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Overmod- the quote function isn't working for me. In your post a couple above this one, are you saying that some of these chemicals travel in rail cars that release some of the contentes if the pressure builds up too high in the car?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Overmod,
Regarding your comment: I submit that no possible practical design of "burst-proof" tank car can be designed for vinyl chloride if that car is exposed to even typical levels of external post-crash fire.
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EuclidThe only solution is a tank car that cannot be breached by forces encountered in any derailment or collision. Forget about the spill pan. Just keep the hazmat bottled up. Nothing will spill and nothing will catch fire. Nothing will sink into the ground water and go to New Orleans. But this has to be serious, not like that modest strengthening of the DOT-111 cars in the wake of Lac Megantic. What is needed is something like the cars used to carry nuclear waste.
Don't forget to have a perpetual motion machine to move the unbreachable car. They are both as likely as each other.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Convicted One charlie hebdo The logical conclusion of the direction Buttegieg suggests is that the profit motive doesn't work well in infrastructure endeavors What we are witnessing here, IMO, is the birthing of "regulation". It has always been popular here on this board to grouse about regulation, as though it was some parlor game devised just to thwart profit.....overlooking the reality that the regulations in place were created to address problems deemed significant enough to justify attention. I have little doubt that 100 years from now, whatever regulation is spawned by this event will likewise be reviled as "senseless hostility to incentive" or some other doublespeak. Ce la Vie.
charlie hebdo The logical conclusion of the direction Buttegieg suggests is that the profit motive doesn't work well in infrastructure endeavors
What we are witnessing here, IMO, is the birthing of "regulation". It has always been popular here on this board to grouse about regulation, as though it was some parlor game devised just to thwart profit.....overlooking the reality that the regulations in place were created to address problems deemed significant enough to justify attention.
I have little doubt that 100 years from now, whatever regulation is spawned by this event will likewise be reviled as "senseless hostility to incentive" or some other doublespeak. Ce la Vie.
"The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another?"
PRR - former Pittsburgh, Ft. Wayne & Chicago that was the primary route Pbgh-Chgo for passenger and much priority freight traffic as well as Cleveland psgr. traffic. Account the grade out of the Ohio/Beaver River valley to the east, there were a few alternate routes, i.e. the Low Grade Branch (primarily a Youngstown/Erie route) and the Bayard Branch that by-passed the section of railroad through E. Palestine. The Panhandle Route from Pbgh to Chgo via Columbus, OH was a heavily trafficked route, but that has long since been dismembered.
BaltACD Euclid The only solution is a tank car that cannot be breached by forces encountered in any derailment or collision. Forget about the spill pan. Just keep the hazmat bottled up. Nothing will spill and nothing will catch fire. Nothing will sink into the ground water and go to New Orleans. But this has to be serious, not like that modest strengthening of the DOT-111 cars in the wake of Lac Megantic. What is needed is something like the cars used to carry nuclear waste. Don't forget to have a perpetual motion machine to move the unbreachable car. They are both as likely as each other.
That's kinda the point: "a cylinder strong enough to do the job" may not be possible.
NittanyLionThat's kinda the point: "a cylinder strong enough to do the job" may not be possible.
One ton of product and 142 tons of protection.
NittanyLion That's kinda the point: "a cylinder strong enough to do the job" may not be possible.
Sombody will just build one and find out. How would that work?
It is just a matter of a structural cylinder strong enough to do the job.
What happens when two such cylinders collide? One of the messier aspects of collisions is accounting for where the energy is dissipated. For example, modern cars are designed for the fronts to crumple, thus absorbing much of the energy. Two very strong cylinders may not want to deform much and this raising the g forces resulting from a collision.
Let us examine the safety valves. All tank cars have at least one no matter what they are carrying. Anything from milk to highly volitile haz mat.
Once the gas pressure gets to a pressure somewhat lower that the tank fail the pressure relief valve starts venting. if pressure keeps increasing the safety valve starts whistling at a higher and higher pitch. If the valve does not vent enough then pressure will increase till tank car fails. (BLEV)
It has not been stated what was burning around the tank cars. It was becoming very apparent to first responders that the safety valve(s) was not relieving enough, How they placed the shapped charge on the tank cars will be interesting. Maybe they used a rig like the oil field hot shots place a charge.? Anyway the larger hole in each car allowed the fluid to drain out of each car and burn at a much slower rate.
Rail cars in derailments may have safety valves alighned in any position. So, how they vent can either be a gas or a liquid at least at first. Maybe tank cars should have a couple fuse plugs . One for heat and one for pressure. Did a lot of steam locos have one.?
Do safety valves have to be built for different classes of haz mat? Acids, Bases, chlorine, amonia, noble gases, etc. Would suspect materials for each would be different,
1) Reducing the train operating speed.
2) Reducing the train’s length.
3) Making the cars stronger to withstand this compressive force.
4) Making the cars shaped to avoid locking together in this derailment compression pattern phase.
Euclid4) Making the cars shaped to avoid locking together in this derailment compression pattern phase.
EPA just announced that they will take over the cleanup and all will be done to their specifications.
tree68 Euclid 4) Making the cars shaped to avoid locking together in this derailment compression pattern phase. Shelf couplers are designed to keep the cars coupled together.
Euclid 4) Making the cars shaped to avoid locking together in this derailment compression pattern phase.
Shelf couplers are designed to keep the cars coupled together.
If Bucky expects tank cars to perform in the way he believes, he would have to assume that any cars ahead of the tank cars won't derail in the accordion fashion often seen. All of that kinetic energy still needs to be absorbed and the tank cars will ram straight into the pile-up ahead of them.
Euclid tree68 Euclid 4) Making the cars shaped to avoid locking together in this derailment compression pattern phase. Shelf couplers are designed to keep the cars coupled together. Shelf couplers are intended to keep the cars from uncoupling from vertical disengagement, which helps prevent couplers from puncturing the heads of other tank cars. But once the cars start to jackknife as more collide with the building pile, the shelf couplers cannot prevent the cars from jackknifing into an accordion configuration. The couplers cannot withstand that bending hinge between the cars. What I am talking about would not need shelf couplers and would be better off without them. Shelf couplers would tend to hold the shape of the jackknifing zigzag at least as it starts. It would be better to avoid letting the cars enter into that pattern in the first place; by letting them flow freely in a derailment. Each car should be like a wet bar of soap, so they can easily deflect and slip past each other. Shelf couplers are not needed with this concept because the coupler impacts will not be able to puncture the thicker heads which are needed for the extra strength of the breach-proof hazmat cars.
Try though you might, you cannot rewrite the laws of Physics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkn37BDvTw
Euclid It would be better to avoid letting the cars enter into that pattern in the first place; by letting them flow freely in a derailment. Each car should be like a wet bar of soap, so they can easily deflect and slip past each other.
That's fine, if you're in the middle of nowhere... If those free-flowing cars start taking out buildings a significant distance from the ROW, that's another story.
BaltACD Euclid tree68 Euclid 4) Making the cars shaped to avoid locking together in this derailment compression pattern phase. Shelf couplers are designed to keep the cars coupled together. Shelf couplers are intended to keep the cars from uncoupling from vertical disengagement, which helps prevent couplers from puncturing the heads of other tank cars. But once the cars start to jackknife as more collide with the building pile, the shelf couplers cannot prevent the cars from jackknifing into an accordion configuration. The couplers cannot withstand that bending hinge between the cars. What I am talking about would not need shelf couplers and would be better off without them. Shelf couplers would tend to hold the shape of the jackknifing zigzag at least as it starts. It would be better to avoid letting the cars enter into that pattern in the first place; by letting them flow freely in a derailment. Each car should be like a wet bar of soap, so they can easily deflect and slip past each other. Shelf couplers are not needed with this concept because the coupler impacts will not be able to puncture the thicker heads which are needed for the extra strength of the breach-proof hazmat cars. Try though you might, you cannot rewrite the laws of Physics.
The laws of physics will be just fine.
"Forest for the trees."
"Unsafe at Any Speed*
Since the integrity of chemical tamk cars cannot be reasonably guarranteed in a derailment (those appear to happen because of failed systems or deferred maintenance due to PSR), an indefinite embargo on very hazardous chemical rail transport should be announced.
When the safety of certain aircraft models is in doubt, that is what is done. The safety of communities where rails sttempt to transport hazmat needs a similar consuderation.
charlie hebdo Since the integrity of chemical tamk cars cannot be reasonably guarranteed in a derailment (those appear to happen because of failed systems or deferred maintenance due to PSR), an indefinite embargo on very hazardous chemical rail transport should be announced.
And how do you propose to deal with the economic slump that will occur shortly after said embargo takes effect?
CSSHEGEWISCH charlie hebdo Since the integrity of chemical tamk cars cannot be reasonably guarranteed in a derailment (those appear to happen because of failed systems or deferred maintenance due to PSR), an indefinite embargo on very hazardous chemical rail transport should be announced. And how do you propose to deal with the economic slump that will occur shortly after said embargo takes effect?
So $$ for Wall Street are more important than the safety of towns and their human residents?
At the very least people along the ROW need to be warned in advance of movements of these materials. And those trains need to be treated as a special category.
charlie hebdoWhen the safety of certain aircraft models is in doubt, that is what is done. The safety of communities where rails attempt to transport hazmat needs a similar consideration.
As was said, how do you plan to deal with the fallout? You think we have shortages now?
Thousands of such movements are made every single day with few, if any, adverse incidents.
Events like East Palestine are the outliers - not the norm.
Find the cause, fix it. Get on with life.
charlie hebdo"Forest for the trees." "Unsafe at Any Speed* Since the integrity of chemical tamk cars cannot be reasonably guarranteed in a derailment (those appear to happen because of failed systems or deferred maintenance due to PSR), an indefinite embargo on very hazardous chemical rail transport should be announced. When the safety of certain aircraft models is in doubt, that is what is done. The safety of communities where rails sttempt to transport hazmat needs a similar consuderation.
If you thought the economy suffered from Covid - you haven't seen anything until you embargo the transportation of HAZMAT commodities. Virtually all manufactured consumer products utilize HAZMAT somewhere in the processes necessary to create the end products.
charlie hebdoSo $$ for Wall Street are more important than the safety of towns and their human residents?
Those chemicals are used in just about everything we use on a daily basis.
CSX Robert charlie hebdo So $$ for Wall Street are more important than the safety of towns and their human residents? Those chemicals are used in just about everything we use on a daily basis.
charlie hebdo
tree68 OldEngineman The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others.
OldEngineman The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others.
The line on which East Palestine is located -- is this the old Pennsylvania main line, or is it another? It was Pennsy - whether or not it was the main line I'll leave to others.
Charlie I hate to destroy you but if there was a total embargo on hazmat getting moved in this nation then guess what would happen to the economy. It would self destruct in less than a week. 2 of the largest hazmat movement categories are 1203 and 1993. Those being gasoline and fuel oil. Those 2 alone would be enough to kill the economy.
charlie hebdoWhen the safety of certain aircraft models is in doubt, that is what is done.
This isn't even an apples and orange comparison. You've hit apples and cats.
The impact of suspending a model of airliner has minimal impact because there's not a lot of them grounded at a time. Other airliners take up the slack in the system because a non-grounded airliner can be swapped in on a flight for a grounded type. The grounded types are often discrete models, making it possible for another airline's aircraft of the same type to still be in operation and that airline able to uptake the traffic from the small number of canceled flights related to the grounding. Grounding a type has minimal impact on airline operations, let alone other industries.
Hazmat is such an incredibly broad topic that means a full embargo on them means you can't make cough drops, pave roads, or move a container full of car batteries. Welcome to the tradeoffs of living in a world more sophisticated than being a subsistence farmer.
It isn't some nonsense about "Wall Street profits over Main Street safety." I want to be able to clean my bathroom and that requires the production and transportation of some chemicals that are pretty nasty.
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