Driverless trains are certainly within the realm of possibility technologically.
I would opine that the hurdle is not technology. However, even technology can't fix a broken switch heater.
Labor will always be a challenge, as they rightfully try to protect their member's jobs. That's why unions exist.
The hurdle will be public opinion. That's why we have PTC in the first place. One Lac Megantic with an unmanned train and suddenly there will be crews on every train again, regardless of local safety records.
Broadway Lion can run ten trains at once, until the cat walks across the layout and bats one off the tracks.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
People tried explaining that to him 9 years ago in the driverless trucks thread.
BroadwayLion4. Move to automatic operartion with no crews on certain trains. My model railroad (a subway layout) operates across twelve scale miles of track and I keep ten trains running at once. No, I do not have ten heads! The trains are fully automated. No computers for me, this is 100% analog operation with nice big relays tha go CLICK. I can see what the relays do, unlike some mysteriuous black chip or come confusing green board. My point is if I can do it then surely BNSF can do it. This starts small, and is only used on lines that run from one terminal to another. They can be fased in by train or region. A train might run from a coal mine to a powerplant. Yes there must be crews at either end to make the machinations proper to that node. But think for a minute what this does: automated trains can run day and night without a crew change, that leaves the local trains to be run by your train crews. It also means that your crews never leave their home base, it means that they will be working days, they can have days and time off, and working for the railroad does not have to feel like a lobster in a pressure cooker.
Your layout does NOT have truckers pulling bridge girders pulling unto crossings and stopping for red lights while occupying the crossing. And as the number of fatalities increase, TESLA STILL says it self driving cars need a driver to pay attention.
The Vancouver Skybus runs without someone on board but it has a completely isolated ROW unlike real RRS. Its not yet ready for the existing rairoad plant.
BroadwayLionOOooo, But we don't keep electing _________, (fill in your own favorite villans) Outside our door there is seven feet of snow and -40 degrees of wind chill. Only railroaders go to work on days like this 'cause the state closed all of the other roads.
Russell
BaltACD Australia
BackshopPeople in California can't be that stupid. After all, they're smart enough not to live in North Dakota!
OOOooo, But we don't keep electing _________, (fill in your own favorite villans)
Outside our door there is seven feet of snow and -40 degrees of wind chill. Only railroaders go to work on days like this 'cause the state closed all of the other roads.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Tongue-in-cheek comments by Brother Elias.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
BroadwayLion BaltACD It has 2.968 MILLION Square Miles of land area and a population of 25.74 million people. In comparison California has a population of over 39 Million. Yes, but those kangaroos have more intelligence than sll of California put together.
BaltACD It has 2.968 MILLION Square Miles of land area and a population of 25.74 million people. In comparison California has a population of over 39 Million.
Yes, but those kangaroos have more intelligence than sll of California put together.
While 'roos out number people in Australia 2 to 1, bats out number 'roos. Thus the term batsh.t crazy.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BroadwayLionThis too is easily fixed. Instasll permanent bariers at all grade crossings and let the municpalities find their own way to get to the other side of the tracks.
Now you're into "who came first?" The railroads might be able to pull that off if they were first, but if the road was there first, the situation changes.
A major issue arises with how to eliminate those grade crossings where there isn't sufficient real estate to replace a crossing that can't be otherwise bypassed.
Take a look at the little village of Deshler, OH. A couple of the side streets could be closed with little problem. The state highway/Main Street crossing is surrounded by buildings. You can see most of the crossings on the rail cams there. And the area is billiard table flat, so we're talking a lot of fill.
Not to mention the ill will that would be created.
tree68At the very least it would require a completely isolated ROW - no crossings. Not to mention other possible incursions, such as livestock and trespassers.
This too is easily fixed. Instasll permanent bariers at all grade crossings and let the municpalities find their own way to get to the other side of the tracks.
Problem Solved.
BaltACDIt has 2.968 MILLION Square Miles of land area and a population of 25.74 million people. In comparison California has a population of over 39 Million.
From an article about driverless vehicles on the roadways in Science Magazine:
In a recent survey by AAA, for example, 78% of respondents said they were afraid to ride in an AV. In a poll by insurance giant AIG, 41% didn't want to share the road with driverless cars. And, ironically, even as companies roll out more capable semi-AVs, the public is becoming less—not more—trusting of AVs, according to surveys over the past 2 years by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) in Cambridge and marketing firm J.D. Power and Associates.
I'm sure the public will be thrilled to know that a train with no humans on board could be speeding through their town... There are definitely places where the concept could work, but the one railroad that has gone "driverless" in the past eventually put crews back on board (Black Mesa and Lake Powell, I believe).
We've had enough discussions about ROW incursions to show that "it depends" is a large part of running a train. Making the control logic of an unmanned locomotive work will be a challenge.
Euclid tree68 I'd opine that you'd see significant pushback from the public on #4 - totally unmanned trains. At the very least it would require a completely isolated ROW - no crossings. Not to mention other possible incursions, such as livestock and trespassers. My daughter's SUV can detect something unexpected in front of her vehicle, but the solution - an automatic panic brake - is not really feasible on a 100 car train. And that detection doesn't differentiate between what the object is. For a train, a random deer is expendable. A human or a herd of cows is less so. Add Quote to Why? They can't stop in time even with a crew. The public knows that and they accept it. I am sure an autonomous train could detect any impact and stop just like a human operator would do. So why would the public object to automated trains?
tree68 I'd opine that you'd see significant pushback from the public on #4 - totally unmanned trains. At the very least it would require a completely isolated ROW - no crossings. Not to mention other possible incursions, such as livestock and trespassers. My daughter's SUV can detect something unexpected in front of her vehicle, but the solution - an automatic panic brake - is not really feasible on a 100 car train. And that detection doesn't differentiate between what the object is. For a train, a random deer is expendable. A human or a herd of cows is less so. Add Quote to
Why? They can't stop in time even with a crew. The public knows that and they accept it. I am sure an autonomous train could detect any impact and stop just like a human operator would do. So why would the public object to automated trains?
John G. Kneiling wanted automated trains to be programmed to continue on their way if sensors (I think he said metal detectors) at a grade crossing determined the train would not be impacted if it collided with an object on the crossing.
Jeff
Euclid... Those Australian iron ore railroads with autonomous trains have some grade crossings and the say they have sensors to detect any fouling of the crossing.
Those Australian iron ore railroads with autonomous trains have some grade crossings and the say they have sensors to detect any fouling of the crossing.
In Australia 99% of the land area is not human occupied. So even if there are grade crossings the likelyhood of encountering a vehicle is very low.
It has 2.968 MILLION Square Miles of land area and a population of 25.74 million people. In comparison California has a population of over 39 Million.
Flintlock76 Euclid Why? They can't stop in time even with a crew. The public knows that and they accept it. Some do, but a hell of a lot don't. Decades ago railroads used to put out public safety films on just this subject. When's the last time you saw one on TV, in the movies, or even on YouTube, unless it was on a vintage railroad film site? The ignorance of a lot of the public on this and other subjects can be pretty shocking.
Euclid Why? They can't stop in time even with a crew. The public knows that and they accept it.
Some do, but a hell of a lot don't. Decades ago railroads used to put out public safety films on just this subject. When's the last time you saw one on TV, in the movies, or even on YouTube, unless it was on a vintage railroad film site? The ignorance of a lot of the public on this and other subjects can be pretty shocking.
When I say, "The public know that and they accept it," I am not referrring to their responsibility to yield to trains, if that is what you are referring to.
My point is this: If you have an automated train that can sense cars and people fouling the track, and even stop for them if there is enough distance available to stop before hitting them; That would be just what a live engineer could do. So why is the live engineer safer than the automated train?
And if the vehicle or person fouling the track is too close for the train to stop in time, the vehicle or person will get hit by the train, no matter whether the train is automated or operated by a human. So again, why is the train operated by a human safer than the automated train?
EuclidWhy? They can't stop in time even with a crew. The public knows that and they accept it.
tree68I'd opine that you'd see significant pushback from the public on #4 - totally unmanned trains. At the very least it would require a completely isolated ROW - no crossings. Not to mention other possible incursions, such as livestock and trespassers. My daughter's SUV can detect something unexpected in front of her vehicle, but the solution - an automatic panic brake - is not really feasible on a 100 car train. And that detection doesn't differentiate between what the object is. For a train, a random deer is expendable. A human or a herd of cows is less so. Add Quote to
I'd opine that you'd see significant pushback from the public on #4 - totally unmanned trains.
At the very least it would require a completely isolated ROW - no crossings. Not to mention other possible incursions, such as livestock and trespassers. My daughter's SUV can detect something unexpected in front of her vehicle, but the solution - an automatic panic brake - is not really feasible on a 100 car train. And that detection doesn't differentiate between what the object is. For a train, a random deer is expendable. A human or a herd of cows is less so.
Love 'ya Brother Lion, and I'm always glad to see you here!
And Merry Christmas to you!
Now that being said, I've got to go with York1. Articles 2,3, and 4 I'd expect some screaming bloody murder from the unions. Not blaming the unions, far from it, just sayin'.
Numbers 2, 3, and 4, -- not sure unions will ever agree.
As per the January Issue, I the BroadwayLION, a monk who knows little about railroads will stick my nose into the conversation with my observations.
1) HIRE MORE PEOPLE [I mean, you know, how hard is THAT to figure out.]
2) Contract for PRN operators. Hire a company that provides employees by the hour, week, month or longer. Clinics Hospitals and especially nursing homes are forced to go this route for temporary employees. You already deal with power by the hour, this is little different. Contract company assures that licenses are correct, and records are clean, railroad is responsible to orient the contract employee to the route and trains he (or she) will operate. Working for such a company appeals to many in the medical industry, maybe the same thing can be found here.
3. Move to one man crews. With positive Train Control riding in the left hand seat this now becomes a more viable option. To make this agreeable to the unions it must be stipulated that no employee will lose their job, indeed, this may provide more slack to employees for time or days off.
4. Move to automatic operartion with no crews on certain trains. My model railroad (a subway layout) operates across twelve scale miles of track and I keep ten trains running at once. No, I do not have ten heads! The trains are fully automated. No computers for me, this is 100% analog operation with nice big relays tha go CLICK. I can see what the relays do, unlike some mysteriuous black chip or come confusing green board. My point is if I can do it then surely BNSF can do it.
This starts small, and is only used on lines that run from one terminal to another. They can be fased in by train or region. A train might run from a coal mine to a powerplant. Yes there must be crews at either end to make the machinations proper to that node. But think for a minute what this does: automated trains can run day and night without a crew change, that leaves the local trains to be run by your train crews. It also means that your crews never leave their home base, it means that they will be working days, they can have days and time off, and working for the railroad does not have to feel like a lobster in a pressure cooker.
Of course, here again, all jobs must be protected and no employee be let go. You still need these employees, right, that is what this article is all about. With the jobs protected the railroad and the unions may look toward satisfaction with the work rules.
ROAR (the BroadwayLION)
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