Several questions about a crossing near my home

[88gta350]

A NS line (not sure if you'd call it a branch line or a spur) runs the length of my property and crosses the street out front. The road is a two lane (one in each direction) road, but fairly busy. Most of the traffic on this road is what I'd call "high-risk" traffic. I would estimate that this crossing sees several thousand autos a day, with about 40% of that traffic being trucks. Of those trucks, about 95% of them are placarded hazardous materials (there is a tank farm nearby). There is also a highschool nearby, which means in the moring and afternoon it sees a lot of teenage drivers. Also known as industructable drivers. And of course lots of schoolbuses. Overall, I would estimate about 50% of the traffic over this crossing is from one of these "high risk" groups... i.e. an accident is either more likely to happen, or more likely to cause mass casualties. The crossing is guraded by a pair of crossbucks with lights only, no gates. The speed limit on the line is very low, I've never seen the train move faster than 10-15 mph over the entire line, especially at the crossing. The crossing was recently rebuilt. I'm not sure if the railroad did the work or if the township/state did it (the approaches from both sides were redone to eliminate a large bump, and new wodden ties were laid parallell to the rail, no rail was replaced). My questions are as follows:

1. Why were gates not installed when the crossing was rebuilt, or at some other time. With the amount and types of traffic this crossing sees (young drivers, schoolbuses, hazardous materials), I would think gates would be warranted.

2. Why rebuild the crossing but continue to use wood at the crossing. It's very loud any time a car crosses, and can be heard inside my house. With the voulme of traffic, why not use another, more durable material?

3. Who is responsible for putting gates at the crossing, the township or railroad? Who would I contact with my concerns about this crossing? I have already seen more than one placarded truck fail to stop at the crossing as required, and with my house less than 100 feet from the crossing I can just see the day a truck decides not to stop at the same time the lights fail to activate and my house gets blown to smithereens.

Thanks!

[tree68]

The answers, as I know them from my reading/experience:

1. $
2. $
3. Road owner*, although RR will install and maintain once installed.

*There may be funding available via your state for crossing equipment, assuming the case can be made that the crossing is more hazardous than others that also need protection. Said funds are limited.

I'm sure MC can quote better dollar amounts, but I've heard $10,000 as a starting point for a full crossing signal. I'd bet it's higher. Can't quote prices for the rubber crossing mats (vice wood).

[Glen Ellyn]

1. Is where this crossing in a rarul area?
If it is, and their are lights, that amazing that the company put them their.
2. Rubber is smooth, wood is wood.
3. The railroad line, the towns people, and board of safety idmanstration.

[Anonymous]

How many cars cross it a day?

I'm not saying sit and count.. one.. two.. three...

Traffic volume.


Larry is right to. 50K for a crossing.

MANG, that is expensive

You could most likely get a deal, like 75 000 for two corssings in close proximity of each other that work of each other, or so I hear.

[jchnhtfd]

At least 50K; more for really effective (quad) gates. The cost would be borne by the township or state, whoever 'owns' the road, although the railroad does the maintenance. This should be addressed to the town or state, although as Larry says the funding must compete with other crossings -- and other priorities.

As to the wood crossing planks, they aren't such a bad choice, really. There have been other threads which have addressed crossing planks... but I always liked wood.

[88gta350]

The crossing is in what could be called a suburban area. At one time it was rural but is now geting built up. I've never counted but I would guess the crossing sees a couple thousand (two?) cars a day. As I said, most are hazardous material trucks and teenagers going to or from school.

[jchnhtfd]

Dave -- perhaps one of the most effective things you -- yourself, since you clearly are a train nut or you wouldn't be here! -- is to help the school to sponsor an Operation Livesaver presentation. I know teenagers think they are immortal -- I have two, and they terrify me now and then -- but they aren't brainless. They are very likely to be completely unaware of the hazard, though. You could do that right away!

As to the haz. mat. folks: if you see one failing to stop for the crossing, take the dimwit's license number and report him to the local constabulary. They might even do something...

The traffic load you mention probably isn't high enough to get the state or town to spring for effective crossing protection, at least not until a disaster happens, sadly.

[Anonymous]

Some government agency- I'm not sure if it's the FRA or the NYSB- maintains a data base of accidents at all crossings. You might want to take a look at it. Your state department of transportation and possibly your county public works/engineer can also provide you with traffic counts.

Calling the cops about witnessing crossing violations won't work as quickly as calling the trucking company that owns the vehicles. They usually have a "How am I driving?" sticker on the back with an 800 number on it. Messages of this type tend to go to a national company who directs the message to a safety manager.

Your local cops might respond if there's an accident, but there is really very little to do after a violation has occurred. A police officer or deputy has to actually observe the violation and make the stop after that. If you complain enough, you might get the local cops to stake your crossing out for a little bit.

Hope that helps.

Erik

[mudchicken]

Larry: The $10,000 night add the gate arms.....$125,000 for crossing protection from scratch, $160,000+ for 4-Quad system. You are not seing the engineering and fabrication costs inside the signal bungalows. This does NOT include the maintenance and testing costs that the railroad usually pays for for the life of the crossing.

I wonder if the approach grades meet AASHTO/AREMA minimum specification.

Timber crossings, properly installed and maintained, will last 15-20 years and won't destroy the track structure underneath (concrete will destroy them faster, especially on the field side of the rail). The first thing to fail in the crossing will be the fasteners (camcars, lag or domeheads will snap off in the shaft and will fail faster when the grossly overloaded trucks hit them) ... The local government jurisdiction probably would not pay for a HD crossing surface, so they got the standard issue sectional plank treated timber crossing used on secondary tracks by NS.

Dependent on what state you live in, the local state public utilities commission/ railroad commisiondetermines what is "adequate" for crossing protection at a location.

[CShaveRR]

Nowhere have you mentioned how many times per day this crossing is used by the railroad. Yes, it could be either a branch line or an industrial spur which, unless the road is a designated highway, wouldn't even rate a flasher signal.

Having said that, I'd say it's likely that the railroad figures that the wood will stand up and be serviceable for some time to come.

If there's a real cause for concern, your city could install ordinary stop signs at the crossing. School buses and hazmat trucks stop anyway, by law. But after an enforcement blitz, maybe even the indestructible drivers will get the idea.

[88gta350]

The train crosses 4 times per day, Monday through Friday. Two trips up and back the spur. No weekend service. As I said it is a low speed line, 10-15 mph. I'm not optimistic about the prospects of getting gates here. It probably just isn't used frequently enough by the railroad, although it is a fairly busy street.

[88gta350]

Forgot to mention, the speed limit of the street at the crossing is 40 mph.

One other question: If the townships decides not to further protect the crossing, is there an orginization (like Operation Lifesaver) that could provide the township with signage, for free or at a reasonable cost, to place at the crossing to encourage people to pay more attention, not try to beat the train, etc?

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 88gta350

Forgot to mention, the speed limit of the street at the crossing is 40 mph.

One other question: If the townships decides not to further protect the crossing, is there an orginization (like Operation Lifesaver) that could provide the township with signage, for free or at a reasonable cost, to place at the crossing to encourage people to pay more attention, not try to beat the train, etc?

Short answer -- no. Presumably there are signs there already (crossbucks and advance warning). These signs are regulated by the Uniform Manual of Traffic Control Devices, and the choice of which set of 'signery' to put up is up to the authority controlling the highway, as is the maintenance of the signs or whatever (except active crossings -- where the devices are paid for by the authority, but built and maintained by the railroad, in general).

There are a lot of good reasons, as well as historical precedents, for this.

I still encourage you to see if it might not be possible to get an Operation Lifesaver presentation -- or at least some videos -- at the high school, though... NS itself might be willing to help put you in touch with the right people.

Don't get me wrong: I appreciate -- deeply -- your concern and desire to 'do something'! And I really really truly hope that nothing bad happens on the crossing. However, it has been my experience -- and as you can see by reading any one of a number of other threads on this form the experience of everyone involved with railroads -- that some members of the General Public simply will NOT pay adequate attention to signs, lights, bells, and train horns. The only way to stop them is physically -- either a full protection active crossing (by which I mean full quad barriers -- not silly crossing gate arms which people go around, under, or through, but something that will actually stop a truck) or grade separation. And both are expensive, and that same General Public generally declines to pay for it.

Every grade crossing accident is a devastating tragedy, even if no one gets hurt, never mind killed. In many many years of investigating or studying grade crossing accidents, I can recall only one or two which were accidents in the true sense. The rest were all fully preventable, and simply Did Not Have to Happen.

Good luck, my friend!

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

Larry: The $10,000 night add the gate arms.....$125,000 for crossing protection from scratch, $160,000+ for 4-Quad system. You are not seing the engineering and fabrication costs inside the signal bungalows. This does NOT include the maintenance and testing costs that the railroad usually pays for for the life of the crossing.

I stand corrected (and smarter!). My figure was admittedly 3rd or 4th hand and is now several years old. Further, it may have been strictly for hardware (and I don't know what hardware).

[wabash1]

on that branch line they wont upgrade or shouldnt upgrade you are much better off with out the gates .... on our main line the railroad has upgraded many crossing at grade with gates one of these is a gravel county road serving 3 farm houses. the gates are a waste of time they only slow a person down who was gong to beat you at the crossing anyways.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

At least 50K; more for really effective (quad) gates. The cost would be borne by the township or state, whoever 'owns' the road, although the railroad does the maintenance. This should be addressed to the town or state, although as Larry says the funding must compete with other crossings -- and other priorities.

As to the wood crossing planks, they aren't such a bad choice, really. There have been other threads which have addressed crossing planks... but I always liked wood.

I was just factoring in Lights, bell, Link system.

that's it.

No gates.

Just the basic, Music, heat, and four black feet. No add-ons

[88gta350]

I just realized the other day that this is the same line that will likely get commuter passenger service within a few years. If anyone is from the Central PA area or has been following the stories, Corridor One and Corridor Two are iniatives to bring commuter service to Harrisburg, Lancaster and Mechanicsburg/Carlisle. This line that runs past my house is part of the proposed Corridor One line.

Do you think this will have any effect on my chances of getting gates at this location, or are they likely to put gates in when the rail gets upgraded for the higher speeds of commuter traffic?

Corridor One website is: http://www.corridorone.info/

[modorney]

As far as noise goes, it's usually because one of the boards is loose and smacks against another, or the ground. I once worked in an industrial park in Dallas, and we had a siding that crossed the street, near our building. The grade crossing had not been maintained, and had broken asphalt potholes, loose boards, etc.

On a Friday, some locals coned off a quarter of the crossing, and poured concrete into all the gaps (except the flangeway) and removed the cones on Monday morning. After four Fridays, the crossing was decent, and quiet. Of course, this was an industrial park, and the crossing had little use on weekends. Your 40 mph street may pose some challenges.

You may want to pour some thin slurry concrete around the loose boards, at a time of infrequent use - say Sunday morning? It might harden up, before too much traffic crosses. Alternatively, you could use hot tar. Realistically, nobody (highway department, or railroad) will repair a "noisy" crossing.

Generally, crossing gates get put in when traffic counts reach a certain number. Then, your grade crossing gets on a "list" for upgrades, and, when funding is available, it gets the gates. But traffic count is usually just a number, I doubt they "qualify" the type of traffic. One car is the same as one propane truck is the same as one school bus.

As far as getting enforcement, grade crossing stuff is hot for local TV news. Get your local station to film some hazmat violations, they'll love it for the evening news.

[mudchicken]

That concrete will not last until summer - dumb idea!

Also - If the railroad had caught them, they go to jail. (Illegal as sin and the Feds would be into them deep)

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