Mississippi river getting too low ?

[Gramp]

Convicted One

 

 

greyhounds

As far as US railroads are concerned Chicago is already the most important hub of their universe.  And it’s been that way for a very long time

 

 

And taxpayers will most likely be burdened with contributing towards maintaining that status for another very long time.

 

 

 

greyhounds

I generally do not like “Public Private Partnerships.” To me, they’re just a way for politically connected entities to get their hands in taxpayers’ pockets.  Yes, many of the projects do produce benefits.  So what?  We don’t know if those benefits are worth their costs. 

 

 

You and I agree here. I was just bringing up the PPP angle because Gramp appeared to be questioning where are the tax dollars earmarked to the benefit to rail?  ( the old "airports, and highways, and harbors, OH MY!" lament , wondering where rail's "fair" share is hidden.)

 

no, I was wondering if the railroads were at the government trough in a big way.

 

It seems they've gotten hit with big mandates because of accidents. Lots of brickbats, not many bouquets. 

[MidlandMike]

greyhounds

I generally do not like “Public Private Partnerships.” To me, they’re just a way for politically connected entities to get their hands in taxpayers’ pockets.  Yes, many of the projects do produce benefits.  So what?  We don’t know if those benefits are worth their costs.  It sems doubtful that they are worth their costs because otherwise private funding could be raised without taxpayer involvement. 

You seem to be limiting benefit to dollars.  That might be why private funding would finance a project, but government may fund a project for a public interest benefit, such as getting trucks off the public highways, reducing congestion, fatal truck/car accidents, and also saving highway repair dollars.

greyhounds

But transportation, including rail transportation, is an economic activity.  Investments and operations should always be self-supporting.

If transportation is an economic activity, then it should support the economy as a whole, and not necessarily be financially compartmentalized.  You mention the NS Hartland Corridor in your post.  Maybe the government saw a better return in helping to raise a few tunnel clearances so an existing rail line could double their container capacity, rather then building more lanes of highway all the way to Chicago.

[BaltACD]

tree68

... 

It's been said that no form of passenger rail makes money.  I would opine that no form of passenger carriage makes money - all survive on some sort of subsidy.  Even your personal vehicle.

Agree!

[tree68]

BaltACD

But with a politician you get the opportunity to judge the truthfulness of their words and if they don't pass the 'smell test' you and your compatriots can vote them out of office.

Unless you're like the Pennsylvania (?) voters who re-elected someone who was convicted of a serious crime just a short time before the election...

There was a time when voting machines had a "party line" lever, wherein the voter simply pulled one lever to vote for everyone in a given party...  Some people still vote that way.

It's been said that no form of passenger rail makes money.  I would opine that no form of passenger carriage makes money - all survive on some sort of subsidy.  Even your personal vehicle.

[Convicted One]

greyhounds

As far as US railroads are concerned Chicago is already the most important hub of their universe.  And it’s been that way for a very long time

And taxpayers will most likely be burdened with contributing towards maintaining that status for another very long time.

 

greyhounds

I generally do not like “Public Private Partnerships.” To me, they’re just a way for politically connected entities to get their hands in taxpayers’ pockets.  Yes, many of the projects do produce benefits.  So what?  We don’t know if those benefits are worth their costs. 

You and I agree here. I was just bringing up the PPP angle because Gramp appeared to be questioning where are the tax dollars earmarked to the benefit to rail?  ( the old "airports, and highways, and harbors, OH MY!" lament , wondering where rail's "fair" share is hidden.)

[BaltACD]

greyhounds

...

The late Walter E. Williams, once head of the economics department at George Mason University, put it well: “Why is a thief preferable to a politician?”  Because a thief will just take your money and be on his way. A politician will take your money and insist on staying around to tell you why you’re so much better off without your money.”

But with a politician you get the opportunity to judge the truthfulness of their words and if they don't pass the 'smell test' you and your compatriots can vote them out of office.

[greyhounds]

Convicted One

Isn't that what all the hoo-hah was about touting the "public private partnership"  with Norfolk Southern's "Heartland Corridor" project? Not to mention all the tax payer dollars invested in enabling the freight railroads obsession with making Chicago the hub of their universe.

As far as US railroads are concerned Chicago is already the most important hub of their universe.  And it’s been that way for a very long time.

 

I generally do not like “Public Private Partnerships.” To me, they’re just a way for politically connected entities to get their hands in taxpayers’ pockets.  Yes, many of the projects do produce benefits.  So what?  We don’t know if those benefits are worth their costs.  It sems doubtful that they are worth their costs because otherwise private funding could be raised without taxpayer involvement.  If the government causes the money to be spent on improving railway infrastructure it can’t also be spent on another project which would produce greater benefits for the population.  There is no good way for the government to determine the best use for the funds. 

 

I don’t want to be an ideolog about this.  Some things go beyond strictly economic considerations.  Medical care is an example.  If a new hospital or clinic with advanced equipment is needed, it’s fine with me for the funding to come from any source possible.  We’re talking peoples’ lives here.  I don’t want folks to suffer or die because they don’t have access to proper care or medications.

 

But transportation, including rail transportation, is an economic activity.  Investments and operations should always be self-supporting.  That’s one reason I don’t like Amtrak.  Amtrak takes money from working people and transfers it to train riders.  Why are we doing that?

 

Having said all this, I really don’t blame the organizations, companies, or people who take the government money.  What are they going to do?  Turn down free money?  Last year a $700 check from the US Government made out to me just showed up.  What was I going to do?  Send it back uncashed?  (I sent the money to a cousin who is disabled and can’t work.  She had a heart transplant.)

 

Similarly, our government offered our money to NS for the Heartland Corridor project.  What was the railroad supposed to do?  Turn down the offer?  The Virginia Ports Authority would have thrown a fit.  As would the Virginia politicians.

 

I blame the government for misdirecting the money to politically popular projects that can’t stand on their own feet economically.  This misdirection harms our economic growth and reduces the peoples’ living standards.    

 

The late Walter E. Williams, once head of the economics department at George Mason University, put it well: “Why is a thief preferable to a politician?”  Because a thief will just take your money and be on his way. A politician will take your money and insist on staying around to tell you why you’re so much better off without your money.”

 

 

 

[JayBee]

On a Freightwaves discussion forum The head of the Corps of Engineers Mississippi River operations said tows in the area of Memphis, TN are currently limited to 5x5 configuration due to low water narrowing the channel. 

[Convicted One]

Gramp

In today's world, is there any significant economic advantage that the freight railroads lay claim to through subsidy?

 

Isn't that what all the hoo-hah was about touting the "public private partnership"  with Norfolk Southern's "Heartland Corridor" project?

Not to mention all the tax payer dollars invested in enabling the freight railroads obsession with making Chicago the hub of their universe.

[Gramp]

greyhounds

 

 

SD60MAC9500

Your run of the mill Mississippi River dry hopper barge has dimensions of 195'x35'x14' with a 1500 ton capacity. Only when the 9' channel depth is maintained. Typical tows south of Cairo, IL get up to 48 barges in a 6x8 configuration. Sometimes larger depending on river conditions. I've seen tows a big as 6x9. So, at 6x8 config with optimal river conditions you're looking at a total 72K tons of hauling capacity.  

 

 

Agree. In normal conditions (Is anything “Normal” anymore?) the Mississippi River south of St. Louis is a wonderfully efficient transportation artery.  The Missouri River flows into the Mississippi right at St. Louis.  Just a few miles north of St. Louis the Illinois River also flows into the Mississippi.  The added water normally allows much larger barge tows south of St. Louis resulting in lower costs per barge ton mile. 

 

It just gets more efficient south of Cairo where the Ohio River flows into the Mississippi. So, these very large and very efficient barge tows are possible south of St. Louis/Cairo.

 

In addition, there is no need for an expensive lock and dam system south of St. Louis.  South of there the river’s fall to sea level is so gradual that such a system is unneeded.  It’s all very efficient.  But...

 

This is a very limited market.  The efficient river transportation system does not serve major grain/soybean producing states such as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.  And that stretch of river is basically only good for exports.  They don’t really need all that much grain in New Orleans.

 

So, some special interest people got the Federal government to turn the Mississippi River north of St. Louis into what basically is a barge canal. This made the river north of St. Louis into a series of level lakes. (That’s what a canal is; a system of level lakes.)

 

There are 25 lock and dams between St. Louis and Minneapolis.  The normal lock size can take eight barges at once so the normal maximum tow size is only 15, maybe 16, barges.  Each tow of this size will have to: 1) Shove 8 barges into the lock, 2) back away from those barges, 3) wait while those 8 barges are raised/lowered to the next canal lake level, 4) wait while those 8 barges are winched out of the lock, 5) take the remaining barges with the towboat through the lock, 6) put the tow back together, and 7) proceed to the next lock and dam to repeat the process. This lock and dam system has been extended to rivers tributary to the Mississippi.

 

The efficiency of the Mississippi below St. Louis does not exist on these other river segments.  But that doesn’t matter so much.

 

Taxpayer dollars are used to maintain the locks and dams, along with channel dredging, navigation aids, etc.  This is as if the taxpayers were dunned to pay for maintenance of railroad rights of way.  It’s effectively a subsidy to companies such as ADM and another subsidy to farmers. ADM even has its own barge line, American River Transportation.

 

After a big political fight the taxpayer subsidy was reduced to 50% with a fuel user fee covering the other 50% of maintaining the rivers for commercial transportation.

 

It’s still very bad economic policy.  It’s corporate welfare that misallocates scarce economic resources.  I don’t like it one bit.

 

A solution would be to toll various river segments and require them to be self supporting.  But that would be another big political fight with the folks that would loose their taxpayer subsidy.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting. In today's world, is there any significant economic advantage that the freight railroads lay claim to through subsidy?

[greyhounds]

SD60MAC9500

Your run of the mill Mississippi River dry hopper barge has dimensions of 195'x35'x14' with a 1500 ton capacity. Only when the 9' channel depth is maintained. Typical tows south of Cairo, IL get up to 48 barges in a 6x8 configuration. Sometimes larger depending on river conditions. I've seen tows a big as 6x9. So, at 6x8 config with optimal river conditions you're looking at a total 72K tons of hauling capacity.  

Agree. In normal conditions (Is anything “Normal” anymore?) the Mississippi River south of St. Louis is a wonderfully efficient transportation artery.  The Missouri River flows into the Mississippi right at St. Louis.  Just a few miles north of St. Louis the Illinois River also flows into the Mississippi.  The added water normally allows much larger barge tows south of St. Louis resulting in lower costs per barge ton mile. 

 

It just gets more efficient south of Cairo where the Ohio River flows into the Mississippi. So, these very large and very efficient barge tows are possible south of St. Louis/Cairo.

 

In addition, there is no need for an expensive lock and dam system south of St. Louis.  South of there the river’s fall to sea level is so gradual that such a system is unneeded.  It’s all very efficient.  But...

 

This is a very limited market.  The efficient river transportation system does not serve major grain/soybean producing states such as Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.  And that stretch of river is basically only good for exports.  They don’t really need all that much grain in New Orleans.

 

So, some special interest people got the Federal government to turn the Mississippi River north of St. Louis into what basically is a barge canal. This made the river north of St. Louis into a series of level lakes. (That’s what a canal is; a system of level lakes.)

 

There are 25 lock and dams between St. Louis and Minneapolis.  The normal lock size can take eight barges at once so the normal maximum tow size is only 15, maybe 16, barges.  Each tow of this size will have to: 1) Shove 8 barges into the lock, 2) back away from those barges, 3) wait while those 8 barges are raised/lowered to the next canal lake level, 4) wait while those 8 barges are winched out of the lock, 5) take the remaining barges with the towboat through the lock, 6) put the tow back together, and 7) proceed to the next lock and dam to repeat the process. This lock and dam system has been extended to rivers tributary to the Mississippi.

 

The efficiency of the Mississippi below St. Louis does not exist on these other river segments.  But that doesn’t matter so much.

 

Taxpayer dollars are used to maintain the locks and dams, along with channel dredging, navigation aids, etc.  This is as if the taxpayers were dunned to pay for maintenance of railroad rights of way.  It’s effectively a subsidy to companies such as ADM and another subsidy to farmers. ADM even has its own barge line, American River Transportation.

 

After a big political fight the taxpayer subsidy was reduced to 50% with a fuel user fee covering the other 50% of maintaining the rivers for commercial transportation.

 

It’s still very bad economic policy.  It’s corporate welfare that misallocates scarce economic resources.  I don’t like it one bit.

 

A solution would be to toll various river segments and require them to be self supporting.  But that would be another big political fight with the folks that would loose their taxpayer subsidy.

 

 

 

 

[York1]

While it's unusual, it's not the first time.  After living in New Orleans for years, there were at least several times I remember salt water making its way upriver when the river flow was low.

[blue streak 1]

Shipping on Mississippi rates increasing.  Corp of Engineers having trouble keeping 9 foot chanel.  Also keeping sea water out of drinking water.

The US Army Corps of Engineers is dredging the Mississippi River and racing to keep the sea from contaminating drinking water (msn.com) 

[blue streak 1]

Another article today .  Not anything neew except another body found.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/photos-show-the-mississippi-river-is-so-low-that-it-s-grounding-barges-disrupting-the-supply-chain-and-revealing-a-19th-century-shipwreck/ar-AA13bZiX?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=1942c6aec8174ed3b8a4231506290efd#image=AA13bRu6|2

[SD60MAC9500]

 

BaltACD

 

 

SD60MAC9500

 

BaltACD 

blue streak 1

Now a new factor in the possible RR strike.  River so low that traffic slowing and may stop if drought does not end.  How much river traffic may try to go rail?

The mighty Mississippi is so low, people are walking to a unique rock formation rarely accessible by foot (msn.com) 

I suspect, but don't know, that shipper/consignees that are set up for river transportation of their products probably aren't configured to be able to switch their operations to rail, at least not without the expenditure of investment capital to create the rail infrastructure. 

Roughly 65% of US grains get exported via the Port of South Louisiana. There's 7 elevators from Convent, LA through to Port Allen, LA. All are equipped with rail facilities for unloading/loading. Only 3 Class 1's serve the port; CN, KCS, and UP.

 

 

I am going to guess that each barge has a nominal capacity of between 5000 and 7500 tons per barge - ie upto about 1/2 to 3/4 the tonnage of a 100 car unit grain train of 10K net tons.  In normal conditions, I believe tows on the Mississippi are restricted to 15 barges maximum (or at least that is what I have heard).  That is a whole lot of unit trains floating down river.

 

Your run of the mill Mississippi River dry hopper barge has dimensions of 195'x35'x14' with a 1500 ton capacity. Only when the 9' channel depth is maintained.

Typical tows south of Cairo, IL get up to 48 barges in a 6x8 configuration. Sometimes larger depending on river conditions. I've seen tows as big as 6x9.

So at 6x8 config with optimal river conditions you're looking at a total 72K tons of hauling capacity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BaltACD]

SD60MAC9500

 

BaltACD 

blue streak 1

Now a new factor in the possible RR strike.  River so low that traffic slowing and may stop if drought does not end.  How much river traffic may try to go rail?

The mighty Mississippi is so low, people are walking to a unique rock formation rarely accessible by foot (msn.com) 

I suspect, but don't know, that shipper/consignees that are set up for river transportation of their products probably aren't configured to be able to switch their operations to rail, at least not without the expenditure of investment capital to create the rail infrastructure. 

Roughly 65% of US grains get exported via the Port of South Louisiana. There's 7 elevators from Convent, LA through to Port Allen, LA. All are equipped with rail facilities for unloading/loading. Only 3 Class 1's serve the port; CN, KCS, and UP.

I am going to guess that each barge has a nominal capacity of between 5000 and 7500 tons per barge - ie upto about 1/2 to 3/4 the tonnage of a 100 car unit grain train of 10K net tons.  In normal conditions, I believe tows on the Mississippi are restricted to 15 barges maximum (or at least that is what I have heard).  That is a whole lot of unit trains floating down river.

[SD60MAC9500]

 

BaltACD

 

 

blue streak 1

Now a new factor in the possible RR strike.  River so low that traffic slowing and may stop if drought does not end.  How much river traffic may try to go rail?

The mighty Mississippi is so low, people are walking to a unique rock formation rarely accessible by foot (msn.com)

 

 

I suspect, but don't know, that shipper/consignees that are set up for river transportation of their products probably aren't configured to be able to switch their operations to rail, at least not without the expenditure of investment capital to create the rail infrastructure.

 

Roughly 65% of US grains get exported via the Port of South Louisiana. There's 7 elevators from Convent, LA through to Port Allen, LA. All are equipped with rail facilities for unloading/loading. Only 3 Class 1's serve the port; CN, KCS, and UP.

 

 

[MP173]

If I recall correctly, this occurred also in the late 1980s, perhaps 1987 and ADM (Archer Daniels Midland) considered buying the IC in order to move grain down south for export.

Correct me if wrong.

 

Ed

[BaltACD]

blue streak 1

Now a new factor in the possible RR strike.  River so low that traffic slowing and may stop if drought does not end.  How much river traffic may try to go rail?

The mighty Mississippi is so low, people are walking to a unique rock formation rarely accessible by foot (msn.com)

I suspect, but don't know, that shipper/consignees that are set up for river transportation of their products probably aren't configured to be able to switch their operations to rail, at least not without the expenditure of investment capital to create the rail infrastructure.

[blue streak 1]

Now a new factor in the possible RR strike.  River so low that traffic slowing and may stop if drought does not end.  How much river traffic may try to go rail?

The mighty Mississippi is so low, people are walking to a unique rock formation rarely accessible by foot (msn.com)