Commuter Train proposal between Altoona and Pittsburgh, Pa

[dwil89]

Here is a link to an article discussing a proposal to institute Commuter Train service in Central-Western Pa. http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pittsburgh/s_296192.html It would be interesting to see if such a service would be worthwhile....Are there that many people who'd use the service? Although the proposed route would make several stops, so commuters could jump on and off at stops within the range of the run. It would not be a straight through Pittsburgh to Altoona run. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Johnstown would appear to be the outer edge of a suburban route out of Pittsburgh (a little help from the locals, please). Anything much longer is becoming an intercity run similar to the Chicago-Peoria, Chicago-Dubuque, Chicago-Decatur and other runs that were sponsored by the State of Illinois and operated by Amtrak in the past.

[dwil89]

Johnstown is about 90 minutes to 2 hours from Pittsburgh by rail at least. Altoona is another 40 miles east of Johnstown, on some challenging grades with accompanying speed restrictions.. Since there are multiple stops in the plan, commuters might use it to get to intermediate stops, such as Altoona to Johnstown, or Greensburg, etc....It would be a pretty long round trip commute daily for someone commuting from each end of the run....The next question would be, how would NS receive this? This would have to coincide with their freight movements, and this is one busy stretch of railroad.,.especially in the Johnstown-Altoona area. Helpers cutting on and off, slow Coal-drags and general manifests grinding upgrade taking up track space....There are alot of things to consider....NS stopped allowing Altoona Railfest excursions around Horseshoe Curve this past year, simply because it caused too much hassle to coordinate them with the Freight movements. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Modelcar]

....One seems to hear of such actions of NS often....But hope somehow the idea can become reality. Always nice to see passenger trains on the route. With 3 tracks and modern DS process one would think they could find the capacity to do something like this. Bring it on....

[CShaveRR]

Gee, maybe they should put a fourth track around the curve...[}:)]

[martin.knoepfel]

The article talks of a Greensburg-Pittburgh-run too. Trip-time 50' would not be uncommon for a commuter-run.

Is the DMU really new to the US? AFAIK, the RDC's could run im MU.

[daveklepper]

The PRR ran Greensburg - Pittsburgh commuter trains until around 1952, if I am not mistaken. Power was usually G-5 4-6-0's.

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

Gee, maybe they should put a fourth track around the curve...[}:)]

Yeah, and they got an extra tunnel they're not using at Gallitzin.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like a great idea but how about having a commuter service between PHILADELPHIA and READING, PA..........................Only about 1/2 the state's poulation lives near this area lacking much commuter service.

[cnw4001]

Certainly nobody can think this thing has a chance of happening beyond having some politican's get some free publicity.

Why would they need rail when they've already dumped big bucks on a Maglev study?


Dale

[adrianspeeder]

That is my favorite drive out to Pittsburgh. Very nice country and a fun drive.

Adrianspeeder

[dwil89]

That red DMU actually went around Horseshoe Curve earlier in 2004 coupled to an Amtrak engine I believe, on its publicity tour across the Country. I have my doubts as to this idea coming to fruition, at least the entire distance between Pittsburgh and Altoona....perhaps a smaller scale operation from Pittsburgh to Latrobe, or Greensburg, even if that far....Just too much more coordination with freight traffic. The line was 4 tracked around the turn of the 20th Century, primarily to separate passenger and freight movements....As passenger train frequency was well over 50 trains per day back then. Now, most of the line between Altoona and Pittsburgh is double or triple track, It will be interesting to see how far this proposal actually goes....they need to go to NS and get their reaction before spending too much time and money on studies and the like....Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[csxengineer98]

this has been talked about on and off for years.... ill belive it when i see the trains start rolling in commuter service....... untill then...its just talk agin
csx engineer

[Modelcar]

....With traffic crowding around cities and metropolian area highways I don't understand why more and more operations such as this proposal aren't used...Establish a large holding area..{parking}, and let commuters ride most of the way to work without the hassle every day of present day traffic. Provided the city has adequate bus transportation within the city to distribute the workers.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

Gee, maybe they should put a fourth track around the curve...[}:)]

Nah. Too radical![(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D][}:)]

[Anonymous]

I doubt it ever happens. Politics being what they are it will be studied to death. There has been talk ( just that) for commuter service between New Kensington (westmoreland Cty) and the "burgh" for a long time. It would releave the congestion on rt 28 ( Main roadway along the Allegheny River), the track is in place (Allegheny Valley RR) and the parking spaces are available but it has to be studied to death. I want to know what happened to America ! we use to go out and build it and make it work but now it seems we have lost that drive and determination. During WW2 things went from the drawing table to production in less than a month now you cannot do a thing without study after study after study etc,,,. The amount of money wasted on the New Kensington to Pgh commuter line I believe was 500,00 ( I may be wrong). That money could have gone for equipment lease or purchase. Thanks for allowing me to vent

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw4001

Certainly nobody can think this thing has a chance of happening beyond having some politican's get some free publicity.

Why would they need rail when they've already dumped big bucks on a Maglev study?


Dale

The maglev project was supposed to run from downtown to the airport, which is west of the city.

I can't imagine this ever happening. The volume of potential passengers can't possibly be big enough.

[dwil89]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nkalbrr

I. I want to know what happened to America ! we use to go out and build it and make it work but now it seems we have lost that drive and determination. During WW2 things went from the drawing table to production in less than a month now you cannot do a thing without study after study after study etc,,,.

Good point....If the PRR did all these studies, the line over the Alleghenies might have taken years more to complete. They left it to J. Edgar Thomson, chief engineer and later head of the RR, to draw up a plan to get the line across Pennsylania. He did, and in short order, the RR was built, and improved upon over the years to allow for more traffic. However, the fact that the line across Pennsylvania has not been radically altered to this day, is a testament to how well the line was devised in the first place, without study after study....Some research on the current proposal is warranted however, to look at the feasibility of commuter service on this route...would it attract sufficient ridership? How would it impact, and co-exist with Freight Traffic? Some research is needed, however, not study after study....Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Modelcar]

...It seems the thrust of our nation's priorities have changed so much since our work ethic policies in the WWII era....Our concerns now seem to be outward and very litle done for advancement internally. One reads of projects all over Europe and Asia and Scandinavia {sp?}, that boggles the mind....stuff we wouldn't think of doing for ourselves now....???? Modern stuff of all kinds of communications and transportation.

[dwil89]

Another benefit of the past, especially in the 1800's when the PRR line was built, was that much of the land away from cities was wilderness. The PRR had miles of open land from which to select a route. Try doing that now, with the population growth and towns and cities that have sprouted up since then. If a Railroad wanted to build a major route like this today, it would have to spend millions upon millions of dollars acquiring land and then have to go through red tape to build a route similar to the PRR. When these routes were built, thre was nothing much to hinder them aside from the terrain itself. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Modelcar]

....Another aspect of it Dave was...their means of transportation was at best horse and buggy or just pack horse to haul the surveyor equipment up through the valleys and potential grades for their route....Not many roads to assist them at that time. Not many towns to interfere but not much else to help them either...No communication between teams, etc....I sometimes wonder how those railroad surveyor's found the lowest passable route up and over a mountain when the only thing they had to go on is what they measured time and time again.....But no one to tell them there may be a better route 30 miles south, etc....to make a better pass and so on.....

[csxengineer98]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....With traffic crowding around cities and metropolian area highways I don't understand why more and more operations such as this proposal aren't used...Establish a large holding area..{parking}, and let commuters ride most of the way to work without the hassle every day of present day traffic. Provided the city has adequate bus transportation within the city to distribute the workers.

a pipe dream.... the only people that take advantage of public transportation in any city are the people that acutly live in the city where haveing a car is more a hassle the it is realy worth.... traffic problems comes from the suburbainites that commute into the city evey day and work then leave.... and becouse they traval in thier own car...and can come and go on their own schedual.... sitting in traffice for an extra hour into work and an extra hour in it leaveing work seems to be execptable to most people... becouse they have the fexabilty to do what they want in thier own car after they punch out of the office... they can go out after work and not have to worry about making it back in time for the last train and/or bus heading home....... besides... this is talked about for the pittsburgh area....who is supost to pick up the tab for this...PAT......or AMTRAK.... they are both on borrowed time and tax payers money as it is... and i remember right they are both cutting services across the board...so where are they going to get the extra capital to buy commuter equipment and second....PAT had commuter trains that ran into pittsburgh from all over...beaver falls to down town... mckeesport to down town... and points inbetween... they scraped them back in the early to mid 80s becouse of poor ridership and climing costs... what would make commuter trains more appealing now commpaied to only 20 years ago...like i said.... its a pipe dream
csx engineer

[Modelcar]

.......20 years of traffic probably has changed quite a bit....and maybe it's time for some rethinking. Not pipe dreaming, but thinking. Someone must think it has some merit to revisit.

[bbrant]

Good post. I've heard talk about this last summer when I believe they did a test run but like csxengineer said, I'll believe it when I see it. Personally, I'd like to see it happen and I would seriously consider using it since I currently drive from Somerset to Pittsburgh daily. If the schedule & fares were reasonable, I'd rather drive to Johnstown and catch the train rather than drive into Pittsburgh.

Brian

[Modelcar]

...That's quie a commute Brian. Especially in Winter. Miles would add up fast on the auto.

[oltmannd]

When they rebuilt the East Penn Freeway in the late 70's, they tried putting on commuter service between Greensburg and Pittsburgh using Conrail's U36Bs and some worn out P70s. Ridership was terrible, so they gave up after a few months. Apparently, nobody had too much trouble finding alternate routes.

Altoona to Pittsburgh is just plain silly, unless it is an equipment turn for the Pennsylvanian (or whatever the NY-Pitt train is called these days), then the cost is just crew + fuel more or less.

[88gta350]

I would be highly surprised if this commuter run ever happened. Altoona is not a large town by any stretch of the imagination, and there can't be more than a handful of people that commute from there to Pittsburgh. A Johnstown or Greensburg run might make more sense, and maybe tack on a weekend run from Altoona for those that want to travel to the city for the weekend, but other than that there would be no demand for this service.

[oltmannd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 88gta350

I would be highly surprised if this commuter run ever happened. Altoona is not a large town by any stretch of the imagination, and there can't be more than a handful of people that commute from there to Pittsburgh. A Johnstown or Greensburg run might make more sense, and maybe tack on a weekend run from Altoona for those that want to travel to the city for the weekend, but other than that there would be no demand for this service.

Altoona has about 60,000 people. It's the largerst non-suburban city between H'burg and P'burg. I agree - small potatoes.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

One reads of projects all over Europe and Asia and Scandinavia {sp?}, that boggles the mind....stuff we wouldn't think of doing for ourselves now....???? Modern stuff of all kinds of communications and transportation.

Not a lot is happening in Scandinavia that is positive seen from a RR perspective. In my city, though, we do have a brand new driverless subway which is finally showing its worth after months of childhood diseases. Sweden and Norway seem to be downscaling activities, and state driven railroads are retaking failed privatization projects - who knows for how long. Demands for comfort, speed and safety are skyhigh, driving up cost and endangering long term viability of train travel. In Denmark, the signaling scheme is outdated and in need of complete replacement at a cost that politicians seem to find prohibitive.

Scandinavians have always wanted to have things both ways - first class service at a discount. Well, reality is catching up with us here, and it will be interesting to see how much is left say 10 years from now.

[cnw4001]

Anybody know if this is the same crowd which is suggesting commuter service from Pittsburgh's north side? I'm not sure how far the train service would run but it parallels PA 28 in the general direction of Butler. It too is more pie in the sky than reality.