Th were may have been backup generators but in 1962 when this happened no backup generator kicked in. Get the H*** out of the mine.
I haven't been to southern B.C. since these changes happened so I can only make educated guesses, but I suspect you are correct about additional congestion at choke points like the Fraser River bridge. I do know that CN expanded the Kamloops yard in preparation for this additional coal traffic but I'm not sure exactly how day to day operations go.
While I'm not sure if they officially have trackage rights, CP has had access to North Vancouver for a long time, many of their potash trains go there and so did Teck's coal trains before this new arrangement took effect. CN interchanges many grain trains to CP at Coquitlam, I'm not sure if CP does the same or runs theirs right through to North Vancouver as well.
An aside, I instantly recognized the second photo in that article. It's the north switch at Teck's Cardinal River mine, this point was also the highest elevation reached by any Canadian railway. The orange cone on the right was a marker both for the fouling point and where you would be when you finished loading. The track ends exactly four unit lengths past the switch. I hired out there and worked that line for the first portion of my career. Long tough trips, especially in winter, but I still miss it.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70Dude CP now interchanges most if not all of Teck's trains to CN in Kamloops. On CN they become C731 (Neptune), C733 (Roberts Bank), or C741 (Prince Rupert). They often keep the CP power for the whole trip, which has led to CN owing CP a lot of horsepower hours over the last year or two.
CP now interchanges most if not all of Teck's trains to CN in Kamloops. On CN they become C731 (Neptune), C733 (Roberts Bank), or C741 (Prince Rupert). They often keep the CP power for the whole trip, which has led to CN owing CP a lot of horsepower hours over the last year or two.
Thanks a lot for the update on where the coal is moving in Alberta and British Columbia. I continue to be amazed by the interchange of the coal trains at Kamloops, especially with directional running via both CP and CN west of there.
I know there is no love lost between CP and Teck, but did the switch have to do with CN having the access to North Vancouver via the Second Narrows Bridge? CP's system map shows trackage rights to North Vancouver (and to the ex-BCOL beyond there), but I am skeptical.
I would imagine indeed that CN is racking up the Horsepower Hours owed to CP. Given the track layout in Kamloops, the yard would be an awkward location to swap power on Vancouver trains - and even more so with distributed power in three locations on the train. The Prince Rupert trains would go through the Kamloops yard, so I wonder if power might be more likely to be modified on those trains. And, Prince Rupert is a lot longer trip from Kamloops than is Vancouver. That's a long time for the CP power to be offline. But the bigger problem with CP is - depending on the number of trains in that lane - that CP is a small railroad and just doesn't have the fleet to have too many of its locomotives offline for long periods of time. I know that was the case for CP grain trains delivered to BNSF at Coutts or New Westminster going to California; they just couldn't spare them for the week or better until the train returned empty.
Is the added coal traffic over the Fraser River Bridge at New Westminster for Neptune noticeably adding to congestion in the Vancouver terminal? Looks like Amtrak is going to restart service between Seattle and Vancouver in the near future but with only one train per day. Can't help but wonder if all these additional coal trains over the racetrack 10 MPH Fraser River Bridge might put a wrench into the route's fluidity (compared to when they went to Roberts Bank).
Here's a link to an article about the shift in Teck traffic: https://www.railwayage.com/freight/class-i/a-teck-shift-in-canada/
While some of Teck's trains still go to Roberts Bank you are correct that most of their coal now goes to Neptune Terminals, which is jointly owned by Teck and Canpotex (itself jointly owned by Saskatchewan potash miners Mosaic and Nutrien). Some also go to Prince Rupert.
Teck shut down the only Sparwood area mine that produced mostly thermal coal (Coal Mountain/Byron Creek) in 2018, and their remaining four mines produce mainly metallurgical coal. Their only Alberta mine (Luscar/Cardinal River) closed in summer 2020.
Two Alberta mines (Bighorn and Grande Cache) currently ship 100% of their production to Roberts Bank. The third (Coal Valley) has only used Prince Rupert for the past few years, except for a couple short stints when that port was down for maintenance or expansion projects. Bighorn is a relatively new mine just east of Hinton (it has also been named Coalspur and Vista at different points, and is owned by Cline), and both Coal Valley and Grande Cache recently reopened after being shut down for some time. Coal Valley and Bighorn both produce 100% thermal coal, Grande Cache is mostly metallurgical.
I think most if not all BNSF coal trains go to Roberts Bank, I'm not sure if any currently go to Neptune. When coal prices were at their highest in the early 2010s we also had some Wyoming or Montana coal being shipped through Prince Rupert, initially those trains went via Vancouver but quickly switched to running through Alberta, with CP handling them between Coutts/Sweetgrass and Edmonton.
All three currently operating northeastern B.C. mines (all owned by Conuma) produce metallurgical coal and ship through Prince Rupert. One (Wolverine) is just west of Tumbler Ridge, the other two (Brule and Willow Creek) use a loadout at Falls on the Chetwynd Sub. Brule has a very long truck haul, their road is easily found on Google Earth and looks like quite the drive for a haul truck, especially in winter weather.
timz "Thermal coal" ... as opposed to met coal? If so, how's the ranking for total coal export? Does coal for US destinations still go from rail to coastwise ship? If so, what's the ranking for total coal thru a port? Think Roberts Bank only exported 2.7 million tons total coal, in ... a year?
"Thermal coal" ... as opposed to met coal? If so, how's the ranking for total coal export? Does coal for US destinations still go from rail to coastwise ship? If so, what's the ranking for total coal thru a port?
Think Roberts Bank only exported 2.7 million tons total coal, in ... a year?
Well, all the USA-origin coal shipped to Roberts Bank is thermal coal, mostly originating in Montana. But there is (or has been) lots of metallugical coal from Southeastern BC going to Roberts Bank. I think a lot of this is going to the Neptune Terminal in North Vancouver now, but I'll let the Articulate Malcontent weigh in on that.
But indeed 2.7 million tons of just USA thermal coal is not right. Many years, BNSF has delivered over 400 trains in one year to Roberts Bank. At about 15,270 tons each (which excludes the weight of the car), that's just over 6.1 million tons.
And for clarification: NO coal is shipped through Seattle or anywhere else in the Pacific Northwest.
--Mark Meyer
Murphy Siding Speaking of Gascoyne ND. It apprears that the coal mine is still open, about 2 miles east of that town. Comments on Google Maps suggests that the coal is trucked out. Can someone follow the tracks north of the mine and tell me what we're looking at? Crop circles and rows of grain on the ground?https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gascoyne,+ND+58653/@46.1189696,-103.0875483,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x532f25b75ed50e57:0x3088b3b05635e1c!8m2!3d46.1183391!4d-103.0798921
Speaking of Gascoyne ND. It apprears that the coal mine is still open, about 2 miles east of that town. Comments on Google Maps suggests that the coal is trucked out. Can someone follow the tracks north of the mine and tell me what we're looking at? Crop circles and rows of grain on the ground?https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gascoyne,+ND+58653/@46.1189696,-103.0875483,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x532f25b75ed50e57:0x3088b3b05635e1c!8m2!3d46.1183391!4d-103.0798921
No, the lignite mine is closed. Coal trains for Big Stone City ceased in 1995 (replaced with Powder River Basin sub-bituminous), and the mine closed for good in 1997.
Just north of the balloon track and a bit to the west is a feed lot. Just north of the balloon track and a bit to the east is the site of the former mine. The long white rows of stuff in the middle of the balloon track and just to the east and south of the balloon track are pile after pile of pipe that was going to be used on the Keystone XL Pipeline. I can vouch for the fact that it was still there in early October 2021.
BNSF officially calls this "Knife River" now, though all of the track north of the main line is private. There's obviously some kind of agriculture activity here with the large grain bins and loading facility on the tangent tracks to the west of the balloon track. But shuttle grain trains aren't loaded here as two such facilities are nearby at Bucyrus and Scranton. The American Colloid plant is located just south of the main line and is BNSF track. The main thing that happens on the private trackage at Knife River/Gascoyne today is rail car cleaning by Gascoyne Materials Handling and Recycling. BNSF will send, for instance, empty trains of covered hoppers in fertilizer service here for cleaning. In the March 2022 issue of TRAINS, the article "24 hours in Trempealeau" documents BNSF traffic at a small town in Wisconsin, and lists all the trains through the location in 24 hours. The U-CKBGGM4-16 is empty covered hoppers going to Knife River (GGM) to get cleaned.
BNSF has a five-day-per-week local stationed at Hettinger, ND (the crew change point between Aberdeen and Forsyth) to do the work at Knife River.
Electroliner 1935 BaltACD Mines have big ventilation fans to provide air to the crew and to sweep out the methane gas associated with the coal. One day a car took out an electric pole which shut off the power to the mine. We had had to get out and had to walk to the nearest vertical shaft and climb the ladder out. The power outage also shut off the water pumps. By the time we reached the vertical shaft I had water up to my ankles. No backup emergency generators?
BaltACD Mines have big ventilation fans to provide air to the crew and to sweep out the methane gas associated with the coal. One day a car took out an electric pole which shut off the power to the mine. We had had to get out and had to walk to the nearest vertical shaft and climb the ladder out. The power outage also shut off the water pumps. By the time we reached the vertical shaft I had water up to my ankles.
No backup emergency generators?
Someone has affixed my handle to a statement that I never made.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDMines have big ventilation fans to provide air to the crew and to sweep out the methane gas associated with the coal. One day a car took out an electric pole which shut off the power to the mine. We had had to get out and had to walk to the nearest vertical shaft and climb the ladder out. The power outage also shut off the water pumps. By the time we reached the vertical shaft I had water up to my ankles.
Vermontanan2 "Baltimore led the nation in thermal coal exports at 7.6 million tons, with New Orleans second at 5.8 million tons, and Seattle third at 2.7 million tons." Strange because there are no coal export facilities in Seattle. The Port of Seattle website states, "The Port of Seattle does not move coal, but coal shipments come through the larger Seattle Custom District by rail on their way to Canada's Westshore Terminals for export to Asia." Obviously, the figure reflects coal exported at Roberts Bank, BC.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
ccltrains A few short stories about coal. Spent the summer surveying with a transit at coal mines. We did not have canaries for gas detection. We were more modern and had Drager gas detectors to measure methane and carbon monoxide gas concentration. CO was heavier than air and would settle to the bottom. If you breathed a small amount you would become tired. Do NOT sit down to rest as the CO would kill you. We had the 5-15 rule. Methane gas is explosive between 5.13 and 14.97% hence the 5-15 rule. Above and below these limits methane would burn and not explode. One person on our crew carried a historical mine safety lantern. If the flame changed color to yellow the methane was too high. Time to get out, We would take the lift down about 200 feet then take a trolley car to where we would be surveying. We would be about 100 yards from the mining face for our work. When I got home at night I would blow my nose. It would be black from the coal dust you inhaled. Did not want to get black lung disease so I took the oil and gas option in college, Coal is black but the insides of the mine is white. Turn off your light and white becomes very black. Stand there for a few minutes and you will fall over as there is no point of reference to reference to. Coal dust is very explosive and the mines have a rock dust crew who coats the surfaces with powdered limestone. If there is an area that the rock dust crew has not dusted it will be covered with wet burlap. One member of our crew went to relieve himself on the burlap not realizing that the burlap was in contact with the 700 volt trolley conductor. You can guess what happened next. He survived. Mines have big ventilation fans to provide air to the crew and to sweep out the methane gas associated with the coal. One day a car took out an electric pole which shut off the power to the mine. We had had to get out and had to walk to the nearest vertical shaft and climb the ladder out. The power outage also shut off the water pumps. By the time we reached the vertical shaft I had water up to my ankles. Another good reason not to be a coal mole. Five headings would be driven. The center shaft was isolated with cement blocks and used for pumping air into the mine. It was also used for the rail line we used for transportation and coal removal. The shafts were 14 feet wide by 6 feet high. Every 100 feet there was an air lock so you could reach the four other shafts. A horizontal roof is not a stable configuration. In a couple days there would be a crack in the center and you could feel the methane coming out. The miners installed roof bolts to stabilize the roof. In older shafts some of the roof bolts had failed and roof would take on a stable area configuration. Gas would accumulate in this dome and hopefully the ventilation system would sweep it although not always. One day we were in the rail car under a dome when the trolley pole sparked. There was a loud explosion and all went black as the trolley pole was knocked off the power line. We cleaned up a some rock that had fallen on the track and went on our way. This instance made me to take the oil and gas option and not to become a coal mole.
A few short stories about coal. Spent the summer surveying with a transit at coal mines. We did not have canaries for gas detection. We were more modern and had Drager gas detectors to measure methane and carbon monoxide gas concentration. CO was heavier than air and would settle to the bottom. If you breathed a small amount you would become tired. Do NOT sit down to rest as the CO would kill you. We had the 5-15 rule. Methane gas is explosive between 5.13 and 14.97% hence the 5-15 rule. Above and below these limits methane would burn and not explode. One person on our crew carried a historical mine safety lantern. If the flame changed color to yellow the methane was too high. Time to get out,
We would take the lift down about 200 feet then take a trolley car to where we would be surveying. We would be about 100 yards from the mining face for our work. When I got home at night I would blow my nose. It would be black from the coal dust you inhaled. Did not want to get black lung disease so I took the oil and gas option in college,
Coal is black but the insides of the mine is white. Turn off your light and white becomes very black. Stand there for a few minutes and you will fall over as there is no point of reference to reference to. Coal dust is very explosive and the mines have a rock dust crew who coats the surfaces with powdered limestone. If there is an area that the rock dust crew has not dusted it will be covered with wet burlap. One member of our crew went to relieve himself on the burlap not realizing that the burlap was in contact with the 700 volt trolley conductor. You can guess what happened next. He survived.
Mines have big ventilation fans to provide air to the crew and to sweep out the methane gas associated with the coal. One day a car took out an electric pole which shut off the power to the mine. We had had to get out and had to walk to the nearest vertical shaft and climb the ladder out. The power outage also shut off the water pumps. By the time we reached the vertical shaft I had water up to my ankles. Another good reason not to be a coal mole.
Five headings would be driven. The center shaft was isolated with cement blocks and used for pumping air into the mine. It was also used for the rail line we used for transportation and coal removal. The shafts were 14 feet wide by 6 feet high. Every 100 feet there was an air lock so you could reach the four other shafts. A horizontal roof is not a stable configuration. In a couple days there would be a crack in the center and you could feel the methane coming out. The miners installed roof bolts to stabilize the roof. In older shafts some of the roof bolts had failed and roof would take on a stable area configuration. Gas would accumulate in this dome and hopefully the ventilation system would sweep it although not always. One day we were in the rail car under a dome when the trolley pole sparked. There was a loud explosion and all went black as the trolley pole was knocked off the power line. We cleaned up a some rock that had fallen on the track and went on our way. This instance made me to take the oil and gas option and not to become a coal mole.
For the most part we are old farts on here. How about making your posts in a readable font.
I realize that there are some discrepancies in my coal article. This results from the many sources referenced for my article. By selective editing you can get any answer you want.
ccltrains I realize that there are some discrepancies in my coal article. This results from the many sources referenced for my article. By selective editing you can get any answer you want.
I realize that there are some discrepancies in my coal article. This results from the many sources referenced for my article. By selective editing you can get any answer you want,
ccltrainsAllow me to give a little more background in coal. Many people think coal is coal and all is the same. This is not true.
thanks very much for the concise explanation
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Vermontanan2 One thing I found strange in the article about coal in TRAINS was the statement, "Baltimore led the nation in thermal coal exports at 7.6 million tons, with New Orleans second at 5.8 million tons, and Seattle third at 2.7 million tons." Strange because there are no coal export facilities in Seattle. The Port of Seattle website states, "The Port of Seattle does not move coal, but coal shipments come through the larger Seattle Custom District by rail on their way to Canada's Westshore Terminals for export to Asia." Obviously, the figure reflects coal exported at Roberts Bank, BC.
One thing I found strange in the article about coal in TRAINS was the statement, "Baltimore led the nation in thermal coal exports at 7.6 million tons, with New Orleans second at 5.8 million tons, and Seattle third at 2.7 million tons." Strange because there are no coal export facilities in Seattle. The Port of Seattle website states, "The Port of Seattle does not move coal, but coal shipments come through the larger Seattle Custom District by rail on their way to Canada's Westshore Terminals for export to Asia." Obviously, the figure reflects coal exported at Roberts Bank, BC.
Amazingly enough for a city that prides itself on being green, the port of Vancouver is the largest coal exporter in North America.
https://www.spglobal.com/commodity-insights/en/market-insights/latest-news/coal/010621-port-of-vancouver-coal-exports-climb-to-four-month-high-in-october-2020
jeffhergert I know there is lignite in the northern portion of the basin and in the Dakotas, but other sources classify PRB coal as Sub Bituminous.
I know there is lignite in the northern portion of the basin and in the Dakotas, but other sources classify PRB coal as Sub Bituminous.
Indeed. All the coal trains out of the Powder River Basin are handling sub-bituminous coal. Also, the original poster's comment that sub-bituminous "is commonly referred to as brown coal" is incorrect. It is lignite that's called "brown coal."
Lignite isn't shipped too far by rail. The lignite produced in North Dakota and Texas - the two leading lignite states - is mostly used locally. Texas has some utility-owned railroads to move lignite from the mines to the power plant, but that's about it. The one exception is lignite shipped from a mine near Underwood, ND to a power plant at Spiritwood, ND (via DMV&W-BNSF), about 170 miles one way. But even this coal is a dried and refined version of lignite called (not coincidentally) "DryFine." (The plant is supposed to change to natural gas in the near future.) Most of the lignite power plants in Texas and the Leland Olds plant near Stanton, ND supplement their lignite with sub-bituminous Powder River Basin coal. Possibly the longest lignite coal train run in the country (corrections welcome) was from a mine at Gascoyne, ND to the power plant at Big Stone City, SD (about 355 miles one way) on Milwaukee Road (1975-1982) then Burlington Northern (1982-1995) track. In the 1995, the plant changed to sub-bituminous coal from the Powder River Basin, which it uses to this day.
ccltrains Sub Bituminous coal is commonly, found in the Illinois basin, has an energy content of 9,000 to 11,000 BTU and a sulfur content of 1.5%, it is commonly referred to as brown coal.
Sub Bituminous coal is commonly, found in the Illinois basin, has an energy content of 9,000 to 11,000 BTU and a sulfur content of 1.5%, it is commonly referred to as brown coal.
According to the USGS Illinois coal is medium to high volatile bituminous, not sub-bituminous.
jeffhergert I know there is lignite in the northern portion of the basin and in the Dakotas, but other sources classify PRB coal as Sub Bituminous. Sixteen mines in the Powder River Basin produce 43% of U.S. coal - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) Jeff
Sixteen mines in the Powder River Basin produce 43% of U.S. coal - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
Jeff
Yes the Fort Union Formation has a very large lignite deposit. Which carries over into Southern Saskatchewan
The article in April’s Trains magazine on coal was very informative but it did not discuss the wide range of coal prices that were briefly mentioned. Allow me to give a little more background in coal. Many people think coal is coal and all is the same. This is not true.
Allow me to present my credentials. I have worked in the extractive industry since the mid ‘60s having received both a BS & MS in engineer of mines, oil and gas option, from West Virginia University (coal country). During the summer while in college I worked in the coal mines. Along with my extensive geology background I know coal. Being in the mines I quickly decided that I did not want to be a coal mole and went the petroleum route.
There are several types of coal: Anthracite, Bituminous, Sub Bituminous, Lignite, Peat, and graphite.
Anthracite, also called smokeless coal, is mined in the Scranton PA area. It’s energy content is 12,990 BTU (British Thermal Units) per pound. Not too much anthracite is mined today.
Bituminous also called steam or metallurgical coal is mined in the Appalachian mountains of Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky and Virginia. It has a sulfur content of 1-4% with the lower content north of a line that bisects West Virginia. The northern accumulation is normally used for metallurgical coal whereas the southern accumulation is mostly used for steam generation. The energy content is between 14,000 to 15,000 BTU with the higher values being used for metallurgical purposes. Most of the coal is subsurface mined with a smaller portion being surface mined. Typically bituminous coal seam is 10 feet or less in thickness, Many mines feed directly into an adjacent electrical plant by a conveyor belt. (No transportation cost).
The Powder River basin is the largest accumulation in the country, It is a shallow deposition and up to 300 feet thick as opposed to 10 feet for the Appalachian basin. The PRB coal is very low in sulfur but has a BTU content of approximately 6,900. The PRB coal is also called lignite and is used for steam coal. Think of UP & BNSF running the coal trains from the PRB. Most of the PRB coal is recovered by strip (surface) mining with huge drag lines.
Finally the final commercial product is peat. This is decomposing plant matter and can be found on the surface. The BTU content averages 7,200. It is rarely used as a fuel in the USA but is common in parts of Europe. It’s main use in the USA is in gardening.
There is a final coal maturation product, graphite, found mainly in Rhode Island. It resulted from historical high temperature and pressure in its formation. The typical seam is six inches. Pencils anyone?
We see price differences ranging between $10 and $60 (or more) per ton. The reason for Bituminous coal price is the high BTU content and proximity to the steel mills in Appalachia. Here transportation costs are minimal as compared to the PRB. The low cost for PRB coal results from low BTU content and the longer transits from the mine to the power plant. This coal is priced lower to be competitive with other coals with higher energy content and shorter transit runs.
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