Refer box cars

[jeffhergert]

BaltACD

 

 

tree68

 

greyhounds

Just do a pick up/set out. 

Isn't that how it used to work?  Granted, it was usually a "local" that handled that, but we're not far off the mark.

As for just needing a side track (once known as a team track), consider grain handling.  Elevators exist in part so the grain can be shipped out when the price is right, but moreso to hold the grain until it can be loaded in railroad cars.  

Simply having a team track assumes a ready supply of cars.  Otherwise, some sort of storage facility is necessary to handle surges.  Most producers (farmers) don't have enough vehicles to leave them parked, waiting for the next batch of cars to show up.

 

 

Today's grain business is based around loading unit train volumes - not the car load volumes of decades past.  To be efficient the elevator needs the capacity of what two to three 100 car 100 ton/car unit trains can haul so that the elevator can still be taking in grain while they are loading out grain.

The Canadia Film Board has a film about grain operations on the Canadian prairie's in the 1940's & 50's that include railroad operations.

 

When the elevator runs out of room in the silos/bins, the ground will hold it.  Some have wall sections and the grain gets tarped over if it sits for any length of time.  Usually you'll only see it during the peak of the harvest, but I noticed one local elevator still has some in outdoor storage.   

We do have one farmer that loads covered hoppers directly from a spur track.  They grow organic corn and ship out a few cars every week.  Right now the spur is blocked by a reefer, probably a bad order set out.

Jeff

[mudchicken]

Team track was a sidetrack that anyone (general public) could load or unload a revenue car, first come - first served... Those are fast disappearing. A side track/ industry track/ spur track et al needed a license agreement (with rental rates) for a special place to unload/load a single industry's (like a grain elevator) railcars. Industry tracks tend to be off the property to minimize rail lease rates and maintenance issues.

[BaltACD]

tree68

 

greyhounds

Just do a pick up/set out. 

Isn't that how it used to work?  Granted, it was usually a "local" that handled that, but we're not far off the mark.

As for just needing a side track (once known as a team track), consider grain handling.  Elevators exist in part so the grain can be shipped out when the price is right, but moreso to hold the grain until it can be loaded in railroad cars.  

Simply having a team track assumes a ready supply of cars.  Otherwise, some sort of storage facility is necessary to handle surges.  Most producers (farmers) don't have enough vehicles to leave them parked, waiting for the next batch of cars to show up.

Today's grain business is based around loading unit train volumes - not the car load volumes of decades past.  To be efficient the elevator needs the capacity of what two to three 100 car 100 ton/car unit trains can haul so that the elevator can still be taking in grain while they are loading out grain.

The Canadia Film Board has a film about grain operations on the Canadian prairie's in the 1940's & 50's that include railroad operations.

[Overmod]

What I'm thinking is that each reefer is filled (via deliveries via truck or being pulled from storage) at what amounts to a reasonably local crossdock facility, until reasonably 'cost-effectively full'.  The various truck runs are local, presumably many from local farms or co-op providers, and their drivers or employees return home on their own schedules.  When car(s) are full they are dispatched without switching toward the rail-haul aggregation point either autonomously or via tow with an autonomous module.  There is no real reason why an autonomous car could not visit multiple points to be progressively loaded, but I presume that typical class 8 style tractors with non-intermodal trailers could perform the aggregation just as well with far less stranded capital.

Point 1 is that from the time of loading, the car provides the combination of CA and temperature control for optimum shipping, depending on the produce or products being shipped.  I am presuming a distribution architecture on the Rotterdam or Sanford model, but note that there is the capability to break part of the train into short blocks or cars at the receiving end, for switching to different facilities or rail continuation, if there is an advantage to do so.

The operating idea is that the 'block' is built asynchronously as cars arrive, with the presumption that prediction of status, physical  location tracking, and arrival net of 'lashup time' can be known.  The block is prepared for connection to any suitable movement, and it will operate just like any high-speed cut of dumb cars enroute -- no fancy distributed DPU functionality, no required mesh network, no complicated liability, etc. on the main.

In 1977 we had the premise that intermodal traffic that developed from southern and western points could be aggregated up to comparatively late for lateral loading, but that sets of suitable rack equipment could be handled in other trains and added as blocks to the high-speed train from Pot Yard to the Boston termini.  All this was based on the presumption of side-loading compatibility for intermediate points, but it would have been technically possible for the train to carry vans in kangaroo pockets on skeleton flats -- just not load or unload them directly from the train, but block-swap them.  This is similar in principle... not fully container-intermodal, but it doesn't have to be.

[tree68]

greyhounds

Just do a pick up/set out.

Isn't that how it used to work?  Granted, it was usually a "local" that handled that, but we're not far off the mark.

As for just needing a side track (once known as a team track), consider grain handling.  Elevators exist in part so the grain can be shipped out when the price is right, but moreso to hold the grain until it can be loaded in railroad cars.  

Simply having a team track assumes a ready supply of cars.  Otherwise, some sort of storage facility is necessary to handle surges.  Most producers (farmers) don't have enough vehicles to leave them parked, waiting for the next batch of cars to show up.

[greyhounds]

Overmod

This is one place that autonomous railcars or smaller 'tractor' power units would prove their worth -- on-demand pickup of carloads as soon as they are packed, forwarding them asynchronously to make up into blocks that can be flat-switched (with ludicrous+ acceleration) onto high-speed consists at a few choice locations where speed would otherwise be constrained or stop required

It might work in a few places.  But generally, the cars are too large for most perishable shipments.  There is a need to consolidate shipments to fill these cars.  Think of the old LCL system before the government wrecked it.

BaltACD

Presuming that the Intermodal train wasn't required to play 'yard engine' and place and pull the mechanical refrigerator cars in the industry,

 

I don’t know how many times I’ll have to say it.  But I’ll try to say it as often as I need to.  The reefer cars are to be used in intermodal service.  They are to go, as a block, to and from intermodal terminals.  Service to customers, both shipper and receiver, will be by truck.

 

adkrr64

I think what greyhounds is suggesting is NOT the "shuttle these to the nearest intermodal terminal and add to the intermodal trains" part. If I understand him correctly, the idea is to have a facility within (or close to) an intermodal terminal that can take refrigerated boxcars and allow their contents to be a) trucked in from the farmer and aggregated (origin terminal) or b) split up and trucked the last mile to the customer (destination terminal). The idea is to build the trains (traditional intermodal and reefer boxes) at one place and take advantage of the line haul, without the additional costs and delays associated with moving reefers from a yard to a customer siding.

 

Well, you’ve pretty-well got it.  But there is no need for a traditional intermodal terminal anywhere close. It would be NICE to have such a terminal.  The railroad could then give its customers a choice.  But such a terminal is not necessary.

 

All that is needed is a side-track off a main line with a loading/unloading dock. 

 

Serve the customers by truck and transfer the freight with (automated?) forklifts.  Have an existing expedited train pick up/set out the cars.  Don’t “Shuttle” the cars anywhere. Just do a pick up/set out.

 

You’d be adding significant incremental revenue with slight incremental cost.  Money on the bottom line.

  

[Overmod]

This is one place that autonomous railcars or smaller 'tractor' power units would prove their worth -- on-demand pickup of carloads as soon as they are packed, forwarding them asynchronously to make up into blocks that can be flat-switched (with ludicrous+ acceleration) onto high-speed consists at a few choice locations where speed would otherwise be constrained or stop required.

[BaltACD]

jeffhergert

After UP discontinued the dedicated Railex trains, the reefers moved in z trains for awhile.  Intermodal with blocks of other manifest type freight isn't unheard of or new.

Picking up or setting out reefer blocks at facilities other than true intermodal facilities would not be a problem.  

Jeff

Presuming that the Intermodal train wasn't required to play 'yard engine' and place and pull the mechanical refrigerator cars in the industry,

[greyhounds]

jeffhergert

Picking up or setting out reefer blocks at facilities other than true intermodal facilities would not be a problem.  

Thank you very much!

[tree68]

 re-fer

verb

 

1. 1.

   mention or allude to.

   "the reports of the commission are often referred to in the media"

    

   broach

    

    

    
2. 2.

   pass a matter to (another body, typically one with more authority or expertise) for a decision.

   "disagreement arose and the issue was referred back to the Executive Committee"

    

   Just sayin'

[jeffhergert]

After UP discontinued the dedicated Railex trains, the reefers moved in z trains for awhile.  Intermodal with blocks of other manifest type freight isn't unheard of or new.

Picking up or setting out reefer blocks at facilities other than true intermodal facilities would not be a problem.  

Jeff

[adkrr64]

MP173

I agree...why not shuttle these to the nearest intermodal terminal and add to the intermodal trains.

I think what greyhounds is suggesting is NOT the "shuttle these to the nearest intermodal terminal and add to the intermodal trains" part. If I understand him correctly, the idea is to have a facility within (or close to) an intermodal terminal that can take refrigerated boxcars and allow their contents to be a) trucked in from the farmer and aggregated (origin terminal) or b) split up and trucked the last mile to the customer (destination terminal). The idea is to build the trains (traditional intermodal and reefer boxes) at one place and take advantage of the line haul, without the additional costs and delays associated with moving reefers from a yard to a customer siding.

Open to correction if I have misunderstood.

[BaltACD]

MP173

Thanks for replies.

In trucking a "refer" is a refrigerated trailer.  I just assumed same term for the refrigerated units seen on trains (cars, not trailers or containers).

So in summary:

1.  Run on diesel.

2.  Filled at the origin by shipper.

3.  Satellite monitored.

4.  Insulation works well, will only lose a degree or two per day without running unit.

I agree...why not shuttle these to the nearest intermodal terminal and add to the intermodal trains.  

Another topic...more and more regular boxcars being used.  Can those make a comeback?  Love seeing those boxcar trains.

Ed

Note - customers using mechanical refrigeration cars may not be located in a functional proximity to intermodal facilities and trying to integrate the two would only degrade service.

[MP173]

Thanks for replies.

In trucking a "refer" is a refrigerated trailer.  I just assumed same term for the refrigerated units seen on trains (cars, not trailers or containers).

So in summary:

1.  Run on diesel.

2.  Filled at the origin by shipper.

3.  Satellite monitored.

4.  Insulation works well, will only lose a degree or two per day without running unit.

I agree...why not shuttle these to the nearest intermodal terminal and add to the intermodal trains.  

Another topic...more and more regular boxcars being used.  Can those make a comeback?  Love seeing those boxcar trains.

Ed

[wjstix]

"Reefer" generally refers to refrigerator cars, either early ones that used ice or later ones that were mechanical. Mechanical reefers are able to attain temperatures below freezing, so are used for things like frozen meat or vegetables.

Insulated boxcars are generally used for things that need to stay cool rather than frozen, like beer or other beverages, fresh food, etc. Often they don't need their own refrigeration unit; they can be cooled to say 35F or so and once the doors are locked it will only lose a degree or two a day.

It sounds like refrigerated boxcars (a term I don't recall seeing before) are closer to insulated boxcars, they're meant to keep fresh / perishable food cool rather than frozen.

[greyhounds]

This is what I'm talking about:

https://www.gbrx.com/railcars/72-3-refrigerated-boxcar/

This car can be greatly efficient for moving perishable products.  Except for one very important thing.  It's too big.  Few shippers or receivers want to move that much of a perishable product at one time.

By using this type car in an intermodal system diverse shipments can be combined at origin and distributed at destination.  So customers can deal in smaller lots.  Which is something they generally want to do.

Terminal to terminal, not customer siding to customer siding.

[greyhounds]

Lithonia Operator

How do you use reefers in intermodal service? Do you mean use refigerated semi trailers in TOFC service? Or do you mean coupling RR reefers onto hotshot container/TOFC trains?

I mean boxcar reefers moved in expedited trains. From terminal to terminal. Not customer siding to customer siding.

 

Intermodal service is just that, a type of service. It is not a railcar type.

 

Unless the railroad is dealing with some sort of heavy bulk commodity it is frequently more efficient and expeditious to do the freight pick up and delivery by truck while doing the line haul by train. That’s intermodal. The railcar type doesn’t matter.

[tree68]

Lithonia Operator

How do you use reefers in intermodal service? Do you mean use refigerated semi trailers in TOFC service? Or do you mean coupling RR reefers onto hotshot container/TOFC trains?

Last summer, an IM stack train (that eventually came through Deshler while I was there) was held up for a bit further west when the refrigeration unit on a container caught fire.  They left it on the train, no doubt to be dealt with at North Baltimore or some point further east.

Reefer containers is why I mentioned the power pack sometimes used to power such containers, instead of using each containers' own motor.

[BaltACD]

Lithonia Operator

 

SD60MAC9500

Since the refrigeration units are driven by 4 Cyl diesels. Fuel varies by climate and season. #2 Diesel is used in the warm months from May to Sept. Winter blend which can be #2 blended with either kerosene or #1 diesel. Is used from Oct-April. 

Fueling is typically provided by a contractor.

Greyhounds I agree with your friend. Put the reefers in premium intermodal service. 

How do you use reefers in intermodal service? Do you mean use refigerated semi trailers in TOFC service? Or do you mean coupling RR reefers onto hotshot container/TOFC trains?

There are already refrigerated trailers and containers being used in intermodal service.

[Lithonia Operator]

SD60MAC9500

Since the refrigeration units are driven by 4 Cyl diesels. Fuel varies by climate and season. #2 Diesel is used in the warm months from May to Sept. Winter blend which can be #2 blended with either kerosene or #1 diesel. Is used from Oct-April. 

Fueling is typically provided by a contractor.

Greyhounds I agree with your friend. Put the reefers in premium intermodal service.

 

How do you use reefers in intermodal service? Do you mean use refigerated semi trailers in TOFC service? Or do you mean coupling RR reefers onto hotshot container/TOFC trains?

[SD60MAC9500]

Since the refrigeration units are driven by 4 Cyl diesels. Fuel varies by climate and season. #2 Diesel is used in the warm months from May to Sept. Winter blend which can be #2 blended with either kerosene or #1 diesel. Is used from Oct-April. 

Fueling is typically provided by a contractor.

Greyhounds I agree with your friend. Put the reefers in premium intermodal service.

[greyhounds]

Well, I was a trailer/container intermodal guy, but I’ll take a swing at this.

 

A reefer boxcar should be able to carry enough fuel from origin, with a reasonable reserve, to cover the entire trip. The weight of the fuel on rail is not nearly as critical as it is on the highway. It counts, but much less so than by truck movement.

 

If the reefer unit malfunctions it’s generally OK to let it come through to where a Thermo King trained mechanic, or some similar person, can access it. The product inside has a latent temperature that will hold in the insulated car if it’s repaired in time. Don’t panic. We’ll manage it. Might have to bad order the car and delay it by a day. But that happens with trucks too. How often do reefer units fail? I don’t know. I don’t believe they fail very often. The temperature and functioning of the reefer units are now remotely monitored and operated.

 

I wouldn’t try it with fresh strawberries. But lettuce, tomatoes, peppers, potatoes, etc. can move by rail just fine.

 

I’ve got a friend, with rail marketing experience, who is absolutely convinced the way for the railroads to regain market share of the perishable market is by using reefer boxcars in intermodal service. I tend to agree with him.

 

By the way, the railroads were largely driven out of this business by the moronic government economic regulators.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shadow the Cats owner]

The average burn on a OTR style of unit is 1 gallon per hour on low speed and 2 gallons an hour on high speed.  So say your hauling something at say produce or fresh foods you can normally get 2 days out of a 50 gallon tank.  Now if your hauling ice cream or something else that is deep frozen in the middle of summer you better believe that everytime you get fuel for the truck you better fill that reefer up.  

[tree68]

Well, certainly not an expert, but I think these questions have popped up at various times here on the forum, so...

These days may reefers are monitored by satellite.  Fuel level may be a parameter reported.

I'm sure the owners know about how long their reefers will run on a tank of fuel (I don't), so fuel stops are likely factored in.  It's a little easier if you've got something resembling a unit train, so a contractor can top off all of the trailers/containers/cars at the same time.

We've discussed here that sometimes with containers, there will be one generator module that powers a number of reefer containers, rather than each running individually.  

Perhaps Shadow can chime in on how long the average reefer trailer will run on a tank.

How quickly they turn is going to be a factor of transit time, loading time, unloading time, and demand - if there is nothing to ship, they'll sit.  That probably helps explain the art that is common on those nice, white canvases.

Springboard for discussion.

[MP173]

No refrigerator car experts here?  Bumping it to the top.

Any of the questions answered would be appreciated.

I do have a 1990 Car & Locomotive Cyclopedia which provided info and drawings.

Ed

[MP173]

I co-worker who is sort of a railfan called today and asked about refer cars.

He was stopped at a crossing and an NS train passed.  He noticed the refer units and had a few questions:

1.  Fuel used on the refer unit?

2.  Who and where are the unit re-fueled?  Is this done by the railroad or the shipper?   I understand there are shipper owned units but also railroad owned units.  Obviously on shipper owned units those would be fueled by the owner, probably at origin.  What about rail owned units?  Does the railroad assume fueling responsibility?  

3. What is the capacity and length of time based on fuel capacity?  It is understood that a factor will be the temperature control.  The colder the setting, the shorter time frame before running out of fuel.

4.  I assume there are temperature control features similar to GPS units which broadcast to interested parties (shipper/consignee, railroad) the needed data on interior temperature, amount of fuel, etc.   Is that correct?

5.  If these are lessed from railroad to a shipper, I can see where the shipper would need to fill with fuel.  If however these units are general use...who handles the fueling?  The shipper or the railroad?

6.  What is the general turn on these units?  Similar to boxcars, or quicker?  I would think 1.5 turns a month would be average...but that is just my thoughts based on a general lack of knowledge.  I recently read what JB Hunts turns were per quarter (non refer general containers) and was a little surprised of the lack of efficiency.  I believe it was about 5x per quarter.  Seems low.

Any other info is appreciated.

Ed