Paul of Covington I'm getting a headache.
Crews, Trains, hours, miles and pay - a very complex issue.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I'm getting a headache.
The time books the unions issue to their members have charts, so you don't have to always do the math.
Jeff
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
BaltACD Lithonia Operator Let's say you're on a trip rate, and the run usually takes 6-7 hours. But then comes a day with traffic and dispatching snafus, and the run takes 9 hours. Is the pay the same, despite the extra hours? In the US, what is the current train crew time max, under HOS law? Is it still 12 hours? 10? HOS is still 12 hours from On Duty time. A trip between A & Z will pay the same if done in 2 hours or 12 hours if the mileage between A & Z is equal to or greater than 1.5 times the Standard Day. I may be wrong, but even with trip rates there is a point in time (greater than 12 hours) where even a trip rate may pay Overtime. This can happen when when a crew goes dead on HOS outside their destination terminal and it take an extended period of time to get the Relief Crew to the HOS train and then getting the HOS crew to their destination terminal and register off. Crews going on HOS outside of their terminals remain on pay until their final relief time at their destination terminal, thus crews can be on pay longer than the 12 hours that they can actually move freight. The time crews remain on trains and/or inroute to their destination terminal is known as 'Limbo Time'. The last HOS rules I worked under capped Limbo Time at 30 hours per month.
Lithonia Operator Let's say you're on a trip rate, and the run usually takes 6-7 hours. But then comes a day with traffic and dispatching snafus, and the run takes 9 hours. Is the pay the same, despite the extra hours? In the US, what is the current train crew time max, under HOS law? Is it still 12 hours? 10?
In the US, what is the current train crew time max, under HOS law? Is it still 12 hours? 10?
HOS is still 12 hours from On Duty time.
A trip between A & Z will pay the same if done in 2 hours or 12 hours if the mileage between A & Z is equal to or greater than 1.5 times the Standard Day.
I may be wrong, but even with trip rates there is a point in time (greater than 12 hours) where even a trip rate may pay Overtime. This can happen when when a crew goes dead on HOS outside their destination terminal and it take an extended period of time to get the Relief Crew to the HOS train and then getting the HOS crew to their destination terminal and register off.
Crews going on HOS outside of their terminals remain on pay until their final relief time at their destination terminal, thus crews can be on pay longer than the 12 hours that they can actually move freight. The time crews remain on trains and/or inroute to their destination terminal is known as 'Limbo Time'. The last HOS rules I worked under capped Limbo Time at 30 hours per month.
Where pay is based on miles, even with trip rates, you have to run off your miles before you begin overtime. My trip rate is 161 miles, I begin overtime 9 hours and 55 minutes on duty. The trip rate for the east pool out of my home terminal is 197 miles, overtime begins on that after 12 hours and 07 minutes. Our north pool is 108 actual miles, pays 130 miles-a basic day. Overtime for them begins at 8 hours on duty. The long pool, that runs through our terminal-Clinton IA to Missouri Valley IA is 327 miles. Their overtime begins hours after their dead on HOS, something like 15 or 16 hours on duty is what I heard. I've never figured it out for them.
The formula for OT is when the time on duty exceeds the miles run divided by 16.25. 16.25 mph x 8 hrs = 130 miles. (When it was a 100 mile day, it was divided by 12.5 mph.) Often when a long pool agreement is reached, there will be an overtime component built in to start overtime before running off miles. Otherwise, like our long pool, you'll almost never hit OT.
Most of the hourly agreements I've heard about use 10 hours as a basic day, with overtime after 10.
Overtime after 12 hours is called Tow-In. It's at the same applicable rate as when you start OT before 12 hours. No higher rate for being on OT once you're dead on HOS.
Lithonia OperatorLet's say you're on a trip rate, and the run usually takes 6-7 hours. But then comes a day with traffic and dispatching snafus, and the run takes 9 hours. Is the pay the same, despite the extra hours? In the US, what is the current train crew time max, under HOS law? Is it still 12 hours? 10?
MP173 Glad this is being discussed. I have never quite understood the labor pool for trainmen. It is understood that the movement has been made and implemented going from the 100 mile pay to either hourly or "trip" rates. Lets say there is a crew terminal located at "B" which runs west to "A" and east to "C". We will keep this fairly simple. I understand there might be long pools from "B" to "D". Railroad typically runs 20 trains each direction daily out of B. The railroad will determine how man engineers and conductors are required in each direction. Lets just say it is 50 for each direction...just a guess. Lets say you are number 10 on seniority board running between B and A. Do you have to wait until all 50 are utilized before you are called again? Or is there a magic number of crews in which everything below that is on teh "extra board" (lets say 45) and you are called when it runs thru the regular board. Then the extra board is used to fill vacations, time off, extra train movments, etc. Is that the case? Hope this makes sense. Ed
Glad this is being discussed. I have never quite understood the labor pool for trainmen. It is understood that the movement has been made and implemented going from the 100 mile pay to either hourly or "trip" rates.
Lets say there is a crew terminal located at "B" which runs west to "A" and east to "C". We will keep this fairly simple. I understand there might be long pools from "B" to "D".
Railroad typically runs 20 trains each direction daily out of B. The railroad will determine how man engineers and conductors are required in each direction. Lets just say it is 50 for each direction...just a guess.
Lets say you are number 10 on seniority board running between B and A. Do you have to wait until all 50 are utilized before you are called again? Or is there a magic number of crews in which everything below that is on teh "extra board" (lets say 45) and you are called when it runs thru the regular board. Then the extra board is used to fill vacations, time off, extra train movments, etc. Is that the case?
Hope this makes sense.
Ed
The number of turns in each pool depends on how long the runs are. Let's say both runs 150 miles. With 20 trains a day, coming and going on both sides, that's 3000 miles a day, Multiply that by 30 days gets you 90000 miles a month. Divide this by 3500, the midpoint between the 3200 to 3800 mile a month range for pool freight service. That gets you 25.71... . So you will need about 26 turns on each pool to even out the miles between turns.
Let's say you're on a trip rate, and the run usually takes 6-7 hours. But then comes a day with traffic and dispatching snafus, and the run takes 9 hours. Is the pay the same, despite the extra hours?
Still in training.
Our manpower needs are now determined by our CMS, Crew Management Service. There is a management position who determines when to add or cut. Local management has input, but they no longer control the decisions.
We've also gone to trip rates. Ours are mileage based. My trip rate is 161 miles. My assigned pool can work two routes to the away from home terminal, one is 161 miles. the other route is 186 miles. When they went to the trip rate they averaged all the miles and earnings of former pre1985 CNW people(they still received extras like initial and final terminal delayterminal, etc.) The mileage used, my understanding, was suposed to be 173 but they used the 161 miles. Time can also be expressed in miles. I don't have the conversion chart, but I know a conductor who has been counting his miles to qualify for vacation. He's real close and noticed he usually is credited for more miles than the trip rate. I told him it's probably from other things that are paid for and appear as hourly, such as overtime, short crew, etc on the time slips.
Back to trip rates. What they do is give a set rate for miles run. We used to claim actual miles because you good get a few extra miles depending on where you took charge of the train at the inital terminal and were relived at the final terminal. We also used to get extra miles, called lap back, if we had to shove a train that stalled on a hill. Now all that is considered part of the trip rate.
MP173So, who assigns crews. Understood that it is automated to a certain extent, but who oversees the assignments and makes sure there are qualified and rested crews available in order not to van crews to an away terminal? Lots of moving parts, cars, locomotives, and crews! I have always been intrigued by the availability of empty cars for customers, but that is another thread someday. Enough to digest with crews...and Thanksgiving meal! Happy Thanksgiving to all. Ed
Lots of moving parts, cars, locomotives, and crews!
I have always been intrigued by the availability of empty cars for customers, but that is another thread someday.
Enough to digest with crews...and Thanksgiving meal!
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
Trainmasters and Road Foreman of Engines are in direct charge of the Boards in their areas of responsibility. They are the Supervisiors of the employees on the Boards that they have responsibility for. They are the ones who will give the orders to cut or expand the Boards and work in concert with the various craft Local Chairmen in doing it. Trainmasters are in charge of the Conductor Boards, Road Foreman are in charge of Engineer Boards. Conductor and Engineer Boards may or may not be equal in the number of turns that the Boards covering the same territory. Some services may only be 'assigned' as regular jobs and when necessary covered from the Extra Board - such jobs were the regular scheduled Hyndman Helpers at Cumberland. Other unique services at other terminals.
Everything is demand driven - when there is a need, the jobs will exist to handle it; when there is no need there are no jobs. If some job gets called for six consecutive days, the Local Chairman will seek to have that job bulletined as a Regular Job and put up for bid.
So, who assigns crews. Understood that it is automated to a certain extent, but who oversees the assignments and makes sure there are qualified and rested crews available in order not to van crews to an away terminal?
MP173This does get complicated in a hurry, even on my simple A, B, and C points. Like Tree, I "watch" Deshler and "watch and listen" to Berea (both CSX plus NS in Berea) on web cams. So, out of North Baltimore (big intermodal terminal) trains run as follows: North Baltimore to Chicago North Baltimore to Cleveland North Baltimore to New Castle North Baltimore to Cincinnati (unsure of crew change en route) North Baltimore to Toledo North Baltimore to Ridgeway and Columbus North Baltimore to perhaps Marion and Columbus Perhaps more... That doesnt even include the Garrett, Indiana, Williard, Ohio and Collinwood (Cleveland) crew changes. This gets really complicated... So, will a North Baltimore crew typically be qualified for more than one territory? Is there a benefit to be multi district qualified? Does the union promote or discourage this? How about CSX...encourage or discourage? So, if Balt explanation is accurate (no doubt that it is), then regular trains such as the hot scheduled intermodals (I10, I9, I20, I17, I3, I4 etc) will have regularly assigned crews that are "expected" to be on duty on "their days" without assignment....correct? Ed
Like Tree, I "watch" Deshler and "watch and listen" to Berea (both CSX plus NS in Berea) on web cams.
So, out of North Baltimore (big intermodal terminal) trains run as follows:
North Baltimore to Chicago
North Baltimore to Cleveland
North Baltimore to New Castle
North Baltimore to Cincinnati (unsure of crew change en route)
North Baltimore to Toledo
North Baltimore to Ridgeway and Columbus
North Baltimore to perhaps Marion and Columbus
Perhaps more...
That doesnt even include the Garrett, Indiana, Williard, Ohio and Collinwood (Cleveland) crew changes.
This gets really complicated...
So, will a North Baltimore crew typically be qualified for more than one territory? Is there a benefit to be multi district qualified? Does the union promote or discourage this? How about CSX...encourage or discourage?
So, if Balt explanation is accurate (no doubt that it is), then regular trains such as the hot scheduled intermodals (I10, I9, I20, I17, I3, I4 etc) will have regularly assigned crews that are "expected" to be on duty on "their days" without assignment....correct?
I can't speak to North Baltimore and how crews are working between Chicago, New Castle and points in between.
When I was working, Q173-Q174 were assigned crews between Richmond and Philadelphia. Q216-Q217 were assigned crews between Cumberland and Philadelphia. Home terminal Baltimore crews protected Baltimore-Philadelphia traffic. Richmond had pools, Richmond-Brunswick and Richmond-Philadelphia. Cumberland was home terminal for Cumberland-Grafton, Cumberland-New Castle, Cumberland-Baltimore, Cumberland-Brunswick. Connellsville was home terminal for pools Connellsville-New Castle and Connellsville-Cumberland.
Employees on the Extra Board at each location were expected to become qualified on each service the Home Terminal protected.
During my 20 years with the Baltimore Division, there were several occasions where some Home Terminals were changed for specific pools, primarily because the Extra Board at those terminals couldn't or wouln't protect the services they were required to.
It would be necessary to Deadhead Crews between home and away terminals from time to time for various reasons.
Richmond-Philadelphia deadheads were done on Amtrak trains between the points.Richmond-Brunswick was a 3 to 4 hour Van ride.Richmond-Baltimore was frequently done on Amtrak, but was a 3 to 4 hour Van ride otherwise.Cumberland-Brunswick was 2 Hour Van rideCumberland-Connellsville was a 2 hour Van rideCumberland-Baltimore was a 2 1/2 hour Van rideCumberland-Grafton was a 2 hour Van rideCumberland-New Castle was a 3 1/2 hour Van rideConnellsville to both Cumberland & New Castle was a 2 hour Van ride
I have no idea how things may have changed in the 5 years since I retired.
This does get complicated in a hurry, even on my simple A, B, and C points.
tree68One of the regular trains on the CSX Toledo Sub is the "Iron Maiden," often called the "taco train" (taconite) between Toledo and Cincinatti (Middletown). It's my understanding that the crew with the loads (southbound) swaps trains with the empties (northbound) when they meet, so each crew returns to their home terminal each day (well, night, both come through Desher in the dark). The engineer on the Toledo crew had a distinctive horn style, so you could tell it was him most of the time. I understand he's now retired.
It's my understanding that the crew with the loads (southbound) swaps trains with the empties (northbound) when they meet, so each crew returns to their home terminal each day (well, night, both come through Desher in the dark).
The engineer on the Toledo crew had a distinctive horn style, so you could tell it was him most of the time. I understand he's now retired.
There are a whole host of options that get played off the 'basic tune'.
There is one variation where there are crews that are home terminaled at each end of a run. The one that I had to deal with - Rested Away crews would be called before Rested Home crews. Once all the rested Away crews had been called then the rested Home crews could be called.
One of the regular trains on the CSX Toledo Sub is the "Iron Maiden," often called the "taco train" (taconite) between Toledo and Cincinatti (Middletown).
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
MP173Glad this is being discussed. I have never quite understood the labor pool for trainmen. It is understood that the movement has been made and implemented going from the 100 mile pay to either hourly or "trip" rates. Lets say there is a crew terminal located at "B" which runs west to "A" and east to "C". We will keep this fairly simple. I understand there might be long pools from "B" to "D". Railroad typically runs 20 trains each direction daily out of B. The railroad will determine how man engineers and conductors are required in each direction. Lets just say it is 50 for each direction...just a guess. Lets say you are number 10 on seniority board running between B and A. Do you have to wait until all 50 are utilized before you are called again? Or is there a magic number of crews in which everything below that is on teh "extra board" (lets say 45) and you are called when it runs thru the regular board. Then the extra board is used to fill vacations, time off, extra train movments, etc. Is that the case? Hope this makes sense. Ed
What you are defining are three boards, if the home terminal is B. Board #1 will work between A & B; Board #2 will work between B & C, Board #3 will work between A & C with them starting their trip at B in one direction, working back through B in the other direction before coming back home to B in the same direction that they started their 'trip'; only identified 'premier' trains would be handled by Board #3. There also COULD be Assigned crews for certain trains, the assignment would have a Advertised On Duty Time and location - a time the crew would be expected to 'show up' without being called if they held the Assignment as their regular job - the Assigned job might have A as its Home terminal and work to C or beyond with vacancies filled from the Extra Board at B.
Most likely - the order of desirability for these services - #1 The Assignment(s), #2 the A to C runs, #3 either A to B or B to C depending upon which run has the higher paying Trip Rate or longer mileage component.
Employees in each class of service would bid to the 'Pool Positions' in each of the Boards.
For the sake of argument - there will be at least 2 crews for the 'assigned' trains and more likely 3 so that the crews can be fully rested by their assigned on duty times. There also will be 3 crew turns on the A to C and return Board, again so the crews can be rested to protect their trains. Boards #1 and #2 would most likely be operating FIFO on both ends of their runs - each Board would likely have 15 to 20 turns - enough turns to protect the trains schedules without waiting for crews to become rested (in theory). There will likely be a Extra Board of 10 to 15 individuals in each craft to protect vacancies in each craft that develop.
Individuals keep track of their turn on whatever Board they are on. You bid to the various Board's based on seniority, once you get your Turn on whatever Board your seniority has no bearing - only your Turn on the Board. Turns on Boards #1 & #2 will work First In, First Out at both home and away terminals - if the crews are 'lucky' they will spend more time Resting at their Home terminal than their Away terminal.
As can be seen - things start to get complex quickly. The more trains that need to be protected, the more complex things get.
jeffhergertWell, Ive been Laid Off- Sick (LS), Laid Off - Sickness in family (LK), Laid Off - Vacation (LV), Laid Off - Personal Leave (PL). Even Laid Off - Federal Requirement (FR). Those are all company crew caller statuses, but I've never (I was lucky) been furloughed. The railroads I'm familiar with don't use the term "Lay Off" like other industries. You seldom hear of a factory furloughing people. The term that's almost always used is being laid off. Getting "fired" is also different. (LF is the status for laid off - fired.) Most everywhere else, getting fired is permanent. On the railroad often getting fired is more like being suspended. You're out of work for a certain period of time, depending on offence, but you're going to come back. Being fired permanently is being terminated. That status usually won't happen until any union or legal challenge has ran it's course. In the meantime, you're layed off fired. ... Jeff
The railroads I'm familiar with don't use the term "Lay Off" like other industries. You seldom hear of a factory furloughing people. The term that's almost always used is being laid off. Getting "fired" is also different. (LF is the status for laid off - fired.) Most everywhere else, getting fired is permanent. On the railroad often getting fired is more like being suspended. You're out of work for a certain period of time, depending on offence, but you're going to come back. Being fired permanently is being terminated. That status usually won't happen until any union or legal challenge has ran it's course. In the meantime, you're layed off fired.
...
Many railroad labor agreements contain provisions that limit discipline suspensions to 30 days or less. If the Company feels more discipline is warranted the only way to do it is to Fire the employee. Being fired then starts the Union down the path of the various levels of appealing the company's discipline, first through the various levels of in company Labor Relations and failing the in company appeals, appealing the case to the National Labor Relations Board.
The appeals can result in full reinstatement with accrewed back pay; reinstatement with seniority unimpaired and partial back pay; reinstatement with seniority unimpaired but no back pay or NO reinstatement and permanent termination from the company.
jeffhergert... Many railroads have abandoned pay by milage, going to an hourly rate. They may now regulate by number of "starts," beginning of a tour of duty, instead of miles. Even though we still have miles recorded, there has been discussion about changing to a different method, probably number of starts per half, to regulate the boards. Jeff
Many railroads have abandoned pay by milage, going to an hourly rate. They may now regulate by number of "starts," beginning of a tour of duty, instead of miles. Even though we still have miles recorded, there has been discussion about changing to a different method, probably number of starts per half, to regulate the boards.
At the time I retired CSX was moving away from both miles and hours and going to Trip Rates.
Well, Ive been Laid Off- Sick (LS), Laid Off - Sickness in family (LK), Laid Off - Vacation (LV), Laid Off - Personal Leave (PL). Even Laid Off - Federal Requirement (FR). Those are all company crew caller statuses, but I've never (I was lucky) been furloughed.
About regulating the boards. Currently almost all of our trainmen's boards have guarantees. The engineers have gauranteed extra and assigned local/yard boards. I believe road and extra board gaurantees are figured by the half month pay periods. The local and yard guarantees are figured by the calendar month.
The guaranteed extra boards and trainmen's road pools are controlled by the company. The local chairman can ask for regulation, but it's up to the company to actually do it. For the engineer's road pools that have no guarantee, the local chairman is supposed to have the final say in regulating them. In practice, the company will add or subtract as it wants.
There is a formula for regulating those boards. The mileage may vary depending on contract, but generally road pools are supposed to be maintained that turns assigned to a board average between 3200 and 3800 miles per month. (Those numbers are for pool freight service. Other boards like passenger (4800 miles) and extra boards could vary at either the highs or lows allowed.) When the milage drops below 3200, cut the board. If the mileage rises above 3800, add to the board. At one time contract provisions required a person to Lay Off Miles (LM) when they accumulated the maximum mileage for their assigned board. Those provisions were bought out years ago.
Extra yard assignments were regulated by how many days worked within a month. A day being a tour of duty, not a calendar day. Before the change in HOS time off requirements, you could work two tours of duty within 24 hours.
Another thing to remember, and I don't know how it is done these days with more guaranteed extra positions, is back in the old days (20th century) management did not really care too much about how many people were on the extra board that backed up the regular crews. Back then, if you didn't work there were no guaranteed jobs and you didn't get paid. The board was "cut" at the instigation of the local chairmen, not management, if the senior people were not getting enough miles (pay) and started complaining. If the local chairman wanted to keep his union position at the next election, he had to make sure that he kept the people in his local happy. Of course, the junior employees that got cut were usually resentful against the senior men so the local chairman had to do a careful balancing act to try and satisfy the majority of his members. Impossible, as usual when you're involved with money, to satisfy everyone. Along with that, if a division ran out of people, local management would also be upset at the local chairman who often found himself in the middle of this - with everybody mad at him.
jeffhergertLaying off is what you do when you take a day or trip off. It's also known as Marking Off. When you come back from a lay off, you "mark up." Most of our lay off statuses have the automatic feature. A few you still have to manually do it, either by calling the crew caller or doing it through the employee website. Furloughed is when you can't hold a position on any board. (The term "boards" is a holdover from when individual crew member's statuses were kept track of on a chalk board. Even though it's all computerized now, they are still called "boards.") It's also known as being cut off, as in being cut off the board. When they regulate a board (adding or removing turns as business conditions require) and need to remove turns, it's called "cutting the board." Our furlough board is known as the cut off trainmen board. Here's a picture of Santa Fe crew boards. https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8d15970/ Jeff
Furloughed is when you can't hold a position on any board. (The term "boards" is a holdover from when individual crew member's statuses were kept track of on a chalk board. Even though it's all computerized now, they are still called "boards.") It's also known as being cut off, as in being cut off the board. When they regulate a board (adding or removing turns as business conditions require) and need to remove turns, it's called "cutting the board." Our furlough board is known as the cut off trainmen board.
Here's a picture of Santa Fe crew boards.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/fsa.8d15970/
Before Chessie/CSX computerized crew calling - the callers would have a piece of wood about 3/4 inch thick - and about 2 inches by two inches that contained all the necessary information about the employee (Name, craft, home phone number, away phone number and other pertinent information) The 'Board' was a large array of spaces where the employee's block could be moved as necessary for the crew calling function - marked up, laid off and all the other conditions - bumped and yet to exercise their displacement and on and on and on.
When the COMPANY furloughs or have a group of employees 'Laid Off' - the terms are synonymous, a employee 'laying off' IS NOT the equivalent of company laying the employee off.
I can't speak to the calling systems Jeff has worked under during his career - on Chessie/CSX the company utilized numerous computerized calling systems in trying to 'get it right'. Crew calling, at least on CSX, where you are trying to implement through the use of a computer the multiplicity of DIFFERENT labor agreements and 'side letters' that apply to various locations across a company the spans from the Mississippi to the Atlantic Ocean as well as Canadian Border to the waters of the Gulf of Mexico with many historical railroad entities rolled into one is the most difficult computer application to get RIGHT.
Laying off is what you do when you take a day or trip off. It's also known as Marking Off. When you come back from a lay off, you "mark up." Most of our lay off statuses have the automatic feature. A few you still have to manually do it, either by calling the crew caller or doing it through the employee website.
Furlough and Laid Off are synomous terms in the rail industry - for those in positions covered by Railroad Retirement (those actually involved in the operation of the railroad [Train Dispatcher, Conductor, Engineer, Trackman, Carman, Signalman and background clerical support personnel etc]. Railroad Retirement has its own unemployment system - independent of state unemployment systems. Note- The Class 1 carriers ever since Staggers in 1980 have 'done their best' to pare down employees that are covered by RRB and shift them over to SSA and those employees would end up in the state systems were they to be furloughed or laid off, for the most part those would be non-contract (non-union) employees.
I don't know what the payout is or how long it lasts - I do know, when I had my colon cancer in 1996, that RRB unemployment is linked to the Company's sick time payout. With my seniority company paid 100% for 30 days, 75% for the next 30 days and then 50% - RRB unemployment was to make up the difference for the decreasing company share.
Probably a stupid question from someone who has been watching the industry for 60+ years, but what exactly is the difference between being furloughed and being laid off? If furloughed can you draw unemployment from your state? Is there any other compensation for being unable to work? Health insurance coverage? Seems to me that the boo-hoo's from management are purely self-inflected.
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