charlie hebdo Psychot tree68 charlie hebdo Try expressing that as a lament to the family and friends of a casualty of a crossing incident. Lament (n): a passionate expression of grief or sorrow. Despite how some choose to interpret it, reference to Darwin expresses for most the extreme frustration that such an event would happen. If you can find someone here who wants such events to occur - well, you won't. The pain extends well beyond the friends and family of the deceased. How many people have you pronounced dead? I have done several (after consultation with an appropriate doctor). Some were because of their own failed choices. Yet I have to live with the memory. Yep - I'm a little cynical. What seems cold and heartless to some people is a coping mechanism for others - particularly people who deal with human tragedy on a regular basis. Anyone in that position will tell you it's the only way to retain your sanity. Well, I can tell you from professional experience treating combat veterans, emergency workers and a RR engineer, all with PTSD, that your suggestion is a very dysfunctional way of dealing with events like that.
Psychot tree68 charlie hebdo Try expressing that as a lament to the family and friends of a casualty of a crossing incident. Lament (n): a passionate expression of grief or sorrow. Despite how some choose to interpret it, reference to Darwin expresses for most the extreme frustration that such an event would happen. If you can find someone here who wants such events to occur - well, you won't. The pain extends well beyond the friends and family of the deceased. How many people have you pronounced dead? I have done several (after consultation with an appropriate doctor). Some were because of their own failed choices. Yet I have to live with the memory. Yep - I'm a little cynical. What seems cold and heartless to some people is a coping mechanism for others - particularly people who deal with human tragedy on a regular basis. Anyone in that position will tell you it's the only way to retain your sanity.
tree68 charlie hebdo Try expressing that as a lament to the family and friends of a casualty of a crossing incident. Lament (n): a passionate expression of grief or sorrow. Despite how some choose to interpret it, reference to Darwin expresses for most the extreme frustration that such an event would happen. If you can find someone here who wants such events to occur - well, you won't. The pain extends well beyond the friends and family of the deceased. How many people have you pronounced dead? I have done several (after consultation with an appropriate doctor). Some were because of their own failed choices. Yet I have to live with the memory. Yep - I'm a little cynical.
charlie hebdo Try expressing that as a lament to the family and friends of a casualty of a crossing incident.
Lament (n): a passionate expression of grief or sorrow.
Despite how some choose to interpret it, reference to Darwin expresses for most the extreme frustration that such an event would happen. If you can find someone here who wants such events to occur - well, you won't. The pain extends well beyond the friends and family of the deceased.
How many people have you pronounced dead? I have done several (after consultation with an appropriate doctor). Some were because of their own failed choices. Yet I have to live with the memory. Yep - I'm a little cynical.
What seems cold and heartless to some people is a coping mechanism for others - particularly people who deal with human tragedy on a regular basis. Anyone in that position will tell you it's the only way to retain your sanity.
Well, I can tell you from professional experience treating combat veterans, emergency workers and a RR engineer, all with PTSD, that your suggestion is a very dysfunctional way of dealing with events like that.
It wasn't a suggestion. I was just relaying what I've heard from people in that position. I can't offer an opinion because I haven't walked in those particular shoes.
charlie hebdoWhat is most helpful is immediacy for the debriefing and venting that Tree and Balt described.
Our CISD group will often do an immediate defusing - right after the incident.
The group debrief generally occurs several days later.
I've never attended one myself, but my folks who have have been grateful for the process. A key factor of the debrief is that only those involved in the incident can attend, plus a couple members of the CISD team, who facilitate the session.
I have seen criticism of the process.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
rdamon So, what are the alternative ways to help a RR crew other than to reaffirm that there was nothing that they could have done, and it was the motorist fault that the incident occurred? I would imagine that the crew would be second guessing every move they made and wondering if they could have done anything different that would have changed the outcome. There are no winners in this situation, but how do you help the living?
So, what are the alternative ways to help a RR crew other than to reaffirm that there was nothing that they could have done, and it was the motorist fault that the incident occurred?
I would imagine that the crew would be second guessing every move they made and wondering if they could have done anything different that would have changed the outcome.
There are no winners in this situation, but how do you help the living?
What is most helpful is immediacy for the debriefing and venting that Tree and Balt described. Delays are probably inevitable (especially combat) but the sooner the process starts, the greater the probability of a positive outcome.
If there is a delay of weeks or months, cognitive behavioral therapy or dialectical behavior therapy would be typical. Medications might also be added.
Not railroad, but relevant - many career fire departments have employee assistance programs for that very purpose.
Here in my county, we have a team that will conduct a debrief in the event of such an incident. A large part of that debrief is folks discovering that others feel the same way. Sometimes (often?) hearing others describe what they saw sheds light on the overall incident in a way that eases their concerns.
rdamonSo, what are the alternative ways to help a RR crew other than to reaffirm that there was nothing that they could have done, and it was the motorist fault that the incident occurred? I would imagine that the crew would be second guessing every movie they made and wondering if they could have done anything different that would have changed the outcome. There are no winners in this situation, but how do you help the living?
I would imagine that the crew would be second guessing every movie they made and wondering if they could have done anything different that would have changed the outcome.
CSX crews, when I was still employed by CSX, were allowed 'Critical Incident Relief' and were encouraged to get professional emotial assistance to deal with their feelings generated by the incident. I have no idea of other companies policy.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
caldreamer As I have stated in a number of previous posts, I was in the cab of two trains when we hit people. One was a young man on a motocycle and the other was a woman in a car. We hit them at track speed. It was NOT pretty. I still sudder when I think about it as I can see the results in my mind. The results of such an accidnt never leaves you. WHEN will drivers ever learn???
As I have stated in a number of previous posts, I was in the cab of two trains when we hit people. One was a young man on a motocycle and the other was a woman in a car. We hit them at track speed. It was NOT pretty. I still sudder when I think about it as I can see the results in my mind. The results of such an accidnt never leaves you. WHEN will drivers ever learn???
As long as the drivers continue to be human, they won't. Even when full autopilot becomes commonplace, I'm sure people will still override the system to do stupid things.
Not worth arguing. We all deal with stuff like this our own way.
And you know - sometimes the family feels the same way. They know their family member did something ill-advised and paid the price.
As I said before, try saying that to the victims' families and see how they interpret your claims. Odd that at least one (maybe more) mainline engineer on here who deals with crossings at speed operating a large freight doesn't agree with you.
charlie hebdoTry expressing that as a lament to the family and friends of a casualty of a crossing incident.
Euclid tree68 Some may feel that citing Darwin is revelling in the pain of others. It's not. It's a lament. The last thing I would associate with the motive of the Darwin Award is lament. It seems obvious that the real motive is gloat. lament: a passionate expression of grief or sorrow. "his mother's night-long laments for his father" Gloat: contemplate or dwell on one's own success or another's misfortune with smugness or malignant pleasure. "his enemies gloated over his death" Similar: delight in relish take great pleasure in enjoy greatly revel in rejoice in glory in exult in triumph over crow over boast about brag about feel self-satisfied about be smug about congratulate oneself on preen oneself about pat oneself on the back about rub one's hands together rub it in pique oneself on
tree68 Some may feel that citing Darwin is revelling in the pain of others. It's not. It's a lament.
Thanks for the rebuttal of the poster's attempt to redefine lament.
tree68Some may feel that citing Darwin is revelling in the pain of others. It's not. It's a lament.
According to Google Street View the crossing is protected by flashing lights and gates. If they were working properly it leaves one to suspect the car was trying to get around the gates.
Try expressing that as a lament to the family and friends of a casualty of a crossing incident.
NittanyLionGiven that there is a non-zero number of people who will attempt to brute force their vehicle through crossing gates that are already down, I'm not sure what else you can do. It isn't possible to engineer around bad decisionmaking.
Which is just a polite way of saying:
BaltACDThe only thing designing something to be 'idiot proof' ends up doing is finding a more idiotic idiot. Rinse & Repeat.
As someone once said, "Stupid should hurt."
And from a FB meme: "When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. All of the pain is felt by others. The same is true when you're stupid."
Some may feel that citing Darwin is revelling in the pain of others. It's not. It's a lament. The incident is something that didn't have to happen, but did due to someone's bad decision.
charlie hebdoWell at least tree had a constructive comment as opposed to the cynical "let's do nothing since our motorists are uniquely idiotic."
Given that there is a non-zero number of people who will attempt to brute force their vehicle through crossing gates that are already down, I'm not sure what else you can do. It isn't possible to engineer around bad decisionmaking.
BaltACD Shadow the Cats owner The problem in today's society is people live on technology. They literally can't be disconnected from their electronic devices or it's like their brains short circuit. My daughter lost her phone and literally has fallen apart emotionally since she can't electronically connect with her friends 24/7. The first thing we do with a new driver we hire is deprogram them on thinking that GPS is 100 percent reliable. While they are in training with an experienced driver they all get the load to Philadelphia that if you go via the GPS will remove the roof of the truck. However you follow the instructions given by the Shipper on the bills you are given that say ignore your GPS right on them. If you follow the GPS you run into a 12 foot bridge on the route. The directions route you around it and right to where you need to go. Even the OTR truck specific GPS has it wrong. When I was traveling Eastbound on I-70 through Columbus back in May - they had signs up at the downtown I-70 I-71 juncture - 'DO NOT OBEY GPS' for lane changes they had recently made as the juncture was under construction. Shadow - beyond GPS, I suggest your drivers get engrained in their thoght processes the height and width of what they are hauling - each and every trip. Never follow GPS when you see a sign announcing hight or width less than the dimensions of your load - ALWAYS LOOK FOR THE SIGNS.
Shadow the Cats owner The problem in today's society is people live on technology. They literally can't be disconnected from their electronic devices or it's like their brains short circuit. My daughter lost her phone and literally has fallen apart emotionally since she can't electronically connect with her friends 24/7. The first thing we do with a new driver we hire is deprogram them on thinking that GPS is 100 percent reliable. While they are in training with an experienced driver they all get the load to Philadelphia that if you go via the GPS will remove the roof of the truck. However you follow the instructions given by the Shipper on the bills you are given that say ignore your GPS right on them. If you follow the GPS you run into a 12 foot bridge on the route. The directions route you around it and right to where you need to go. Even the OTR truck specific GPS has it wrong.
The first thing we do with a new driver we hire is deprogram them on thinking that GPS is 100 percent reliable. While they are in training with an experienced driver they all get the load to Philadelphia that if you go via the GPS will remove the roof of the truck. However you follow the instructions given by the Shipper on the bills you are given that say ignore your GPS right on them. If you follow the GPS you run into a 12 foot bridge on the route. The directions route you around it and right to where you need to go. Even the OTR truck specific GPS has it wrong.
When I was traveling Eastbound on I-70 through Columbus back in May - they had signs up at the downtown I-70 I-71 juncture - 'DO NOT OBEY GPS' for lane changes they had recently made as the juncture was under construction.
Shadow - beyond GPS, I suggest your drivers get engrained in their thoght processes the height and width of what they are hauling - each and every trip. Never follow GPS when you see a sign announcing hight or width less than the dimensions of your load - ALWAYS LOOK FOR THE SIGNS.
The first video we show in every single safety meeting around here is the latest highlights of the 11'8" bridge off of YouTube. With a reminder that if one of our trucks ever makes it onto there the driver and dispatcher are both fired. We make our area school's driver's education classes very aware of just how large these vehicles are and how large the blind spots are in a simple demonstration we do. We put a bunch cars in the routine blind spots of a truck then have students in driver's education sit in the driver's seat of the truck after sitting in the cars. We then have their classmates flash the high beams on the car and ask if they could see ant of them in the mirrors. It gets their attention in a hurry. Then at the end we play as we call it the best of the worst. The closest calls recorded by our dash cams on the fleet of driver's interactions with the trucks. We go please don't do this around any OTR truck we all have a family we want to get home to safely.
7j43k charlie hebdo zugmann Still tasteless. And that's coming from someone in the field as well. Given that fact, one wonders what personal need is served by the darwin comments made about every rail crossing incident? Never any expression of "prayers and wishes" for these victims, dead and injured. For this particular topic, you could be the first to do so. Ed
charlie hebdo zugmann Still tasteless. And that's coming from someone in the field as well. Given that fact, one wonders what personal need is served by the darwin comments made about every rail crossing incident? Never any expression of "prayers and wishes" for these victims, dead and injured.
zugmann Still tasteless. And that's coming from someone in the field as well.
Still tasteless.
And that's coming from someone in the field as well.
Given that fact, one wonders what personal need is served by the darwin comments made about every rail crossing incident? Never any expression of "prayers and wishes" for these victims, dead and injured.
For this particular topic, you could be the first to do so.
Ed
I believe in action to prevent these incidents, not empty and trite words.
Shadow the Cats ownerThe problem in today's society is people live on technology. They literally can't be disconnected from their electronic devices or it's like their brains short circuit. My daughter lost her phone and literally has fallen apart emotionally since she can't electronically connect with her friends 24/7. The first thing we do with a new driver we hire is deprogram them on thinking that GPS is 100 percent reliable. While they are in training with an experienced driver they all get the load to Philadelphia that if you go via the GPS will remove the roof of the truck. However you follow the instructions given by the Shipper on the bills you are given that say ignore your GPS right on them. If you follow the GPS you run into a 12 foot bridge on the route. The directions route you around it and right to where you need to go. Even the OTR truck specific GPS has it wrong.
The problem in today's society is people live on technology. They literally can't be disconnected from their electronic devices or it's like their brains short circuit. My daughter lost her phone and literally has fallen apart emotionally since she can't electronically connect with her friends 24/7.
And it would have just as much benefit as it does in the other areas of human activities where it gets used. NONE.
charlie hebdo The only thing designing something to be 'idiot proof' ends up doing is finding a more idiotic idiot. Rinse & Repeat. Well at least tree had a constructive comment as opposed to the cynical "let's do nothing since our motorists are uniquely idiotic."
The only thing designing something to be 'idiot proof' ends up doing is finding a more idiotic idiot. Rinse & Repeat.
Well at least tree had a constructive comment as opposed to the cynical "let's do nothing since our motorists are uniquely idiotic."
What we have here are 'smart people' trying to out idiot, genuine idiots. It has been proven since the dawn of time you can't prevent a determined idiot from bring about his own (and others who may be innocent) demise. Just because we haven't overcome idiocy doesn't mean that smart people should not continue the battle to overcome idiocy, futile though that may be.
He does have a point, though. And I basically said the same thing earlier.
BaltACD tree68 charlie hebdo So why even bother trying prevention? You pick your battles, as it were. Crossings with a history get the attention. The list is long and we've discussed many of them here at one time or another. Things like no-horn zones already get special treatment - quad gates, barriers to prevent crossing over/driving around, etc. Problems with specific behaviors get attention (ie, GPS incorrect instructions). Short of closing all crossings (not always effective, as mentioned) and/or fencing off all ROWs, there's only so much you can do. I'm reminded of an editorial in a Michigan newspaper back in the 1960's. The piece decried an effort to get rid of "killer trees" along roadways, noting that even if all such hazards were removed, some driver would roll his car over and kill himself anyhow. To be fair, many such hazards have been removed. Guard rails have evolved, the slope at the side of the road has been defined to lessen the hazards of going off the road, etc. On the topic of guard rails, a popular practice (still seen) was to bury the ends, removing the battering ram of the end of the device and causing vehicles to ride up on the rail, slowing them without punching through the vehicle. At least until a young man managed to launch himself off one, resulting in a lawsuit claiming that if it weren't for the ramping, he wouldn't have gone airborne and subsequently died. Many guardrails here now have a "battering ram" construction, but with an energy dissapating feature to prevent the sudden stop. You fix what you can. The only thing designing something to be 'idiot proof' ends up doing is finding a more idiotic idiot. Rinse & Repeat.
tree68 charlie hebdo So why even bother trying prevention? You pick your battles, as it were. Crossings with a history get the attention. The list is long and we've discussed many of them here at one time or another. Things like no-horn zones already get special treatment - quad gates, barriers to prevent crossing over/driving around, etc. Problems with specific behaviors get attention (ie, GPS incorrect instructions). Short of closing all crossings (not always effective, as mentioned) and/or fencing off all ROWs, there's only so much you can do. I'm reminded of an editorial in a Michigan newspaper back in the 1960's. The piece decried an effort to get rid of "killer trees" along roadways, noting that even if all such hazards were removed, some driver would roll his car over and kill himself anyhow. To be fair, many such hazards have been removed. Guard rails have evolved, the slope at the side of the road has been defined to lessen the hazards of going off the road, etc. On the topic of guard rails, a popular practice (still seen) was to bury the ends, removing the battering ram of the end of the device and causing vehicles to ride up on the rail, slowing them without punching through the vehicle. At least until a young man managed to launch himself off one, resulting in a lawsuit claiming that if it weren't for the ramping, he wouldn't have gone airborne and subsequently died. Many guardrails here now have a "battering ram" construction, but with an energy dissapating feature to prevent the sudden stop. You fix what you can.
charlie hebdo So why even bother trying prevention?
You pick your battles, as it were.
Crossings with a history get the attention. The list is long and we've discussed many of them here at one time or another.
Things like no-horn zones already get special treatment - quad gates, barriers to prevent crossing over/driving around, etc.
Problems with specific behaviors get attention (ie, GPS incorrect instructions).
Short of closing all crossings (not always effective, as mentioned) and/or fencing off all ROWs, there's only so much you can do.
I'm reminded of an editorial in a Michigan newspaper back in the 1960's. The piece decried an effort to get rid of "killer trees" along roadways, noting that even if all such hazards were removed, some driver would roll his car over and kill himself anyhow.
To be fair, many such hazards have been removed. Guard rails have evolved, the slope at the side of the road has been defined to lessen the hazards of going off the road, etc.
On the topic of guard rails, a popular practice (still seen) was to bury the ends, removing the battering ram of the end of the device and causing vehicles to ride up on the rail, slowing them without punching through the vehicle. At least until a young man managed to launch himself off one, resulting in a lawsuit claiming that if it weren't for the ramping, he wouldn't have gone airborne and subsequently died.
Many guardrails here now have a "battering ram" construction, but with an energy dissapating feature to prevent the sudden stop.
You fix what you can.
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