I've been absorbing Dec Map of the Month and..."Oh no!" they cry, "not another Kozzie Q!"

[Kozzie]

December's Map of the Month is full of info, especially for us pax train nutters! [:P] [:P] [:)] heh heh..

Anyway, a lot of the names of the trains are self-explanatory, but the Chicago and North Western names have me intrigued....[:0][:I]

How does the "400" come into it? As in: "Dakota 400" for the run out to Rapid City, and "Peninsula 400" for the run up to Ishpeming? [:I]

Dave [:)] [:I]

[espeefoamer]

The name "400" came about because it is roughly 400 miles between Chicago and the Twin Cities, and the C&NW made the run in 400 minutes.Later the road attached the "400 "to all of thier train names.

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

The name "400" came about because it is roughly 400 miles between Chicago and the Twin Cities, and the C&NW made the run in 400 minutes.Later the road attached the "400 "to all of thier train names.

Ahh! Mystery solved - thank you spfoamer! [:)] [:)]

Dave

[mudchicken]

I'm sure the "Hummer from Down Under" will hit us with a new one in record time![swg][swg][zzz]

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mudchicken

I'm sure the "Hummer from Down Under" will hit us with a new one in record time![swg][swg][zzz]

Hummer from Downunder - Mudchicken - did you just make that one up?

hee hee hee not bad...(here I was thinking I was subtle! heh heh...)

Dave

[M636C]

Dave,

There was a twist to the train name "400". Apparently in one of the major cities served, possibly Milwaukee, the "top people" in society at the time formed an exclusive group numbering about 400, and this was a term in common use at the time. So as well as indicating the speed of the train "400" implied a "first class" or "exclusive" aspect.

A similar train name was the C&O "FFV" which the railway used to mean "Fast Flying Virginian", but was an established abbreviation for a group of original settlers in Virginia, one of the first colonies in what became the USA. They used it to mean the "First Families of Virginia".

The "400" explanation is in Scribbins' "The 400 Story" and that of the "FFV" in "C&O Power".

I liked the map, but thought it could easily have included a couple of single trains, like the "Twentieth Century" and "Broadway Limited", which were brands on their own and would have filled blank white paper on the map.

Peter

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Dave:
Once again I'll get my revenge and turn the question around. Were there any similar passenger train fleet names in Australia? It's okay if Peter answers this question.
Paul

[CShaveRR]

Robbing Peter to pay Paul?

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

Dave:
Once again I'll get my revenge and turn the question around. Were there any similar passenger train fleet names in Australia? It's okay if Peter answers this question.
Paul

Paul - I'll give it a go and Peter can enlarge.

As far as I know, we didn't so much have train fleet names, but plenty of named trains, especially in the past.

e.g. between Sydney and Melbourne there used to run:

- The Southern Aurora (named after the Southern Lights - Aurora Australis)
- The Intercapital Daylight Express
- The Spirit of Progress

between Brisbane (my home town) and Sydney we used to have the Brisbane Limited.

Here in Queensland, nearly all our long distance pax trains end with "lander"
such as Brisbane to Cairns (Tropical Far North)
- the "Sunlander"
- the "Queenslander"
Brisbane to Charleville - the Westlander
Brisbane to Rockhampton used to have the Capricornian - now the Tilt Train does that run.
Townsville on the north Queensland coast out west to Mount Isa - the "Inlander."

Rockhampton out west to Longreach used to have the Midlander - replaced by
the "Spirit of the Outback" that starts down here in Brisbane, up the coast to Rockhampton
and then on out west to Longreach.

As you can see, plenty of "landers" in Queensland.

OF course the big trip, east-west, right acros the continent, Sydney to Perth (and back)
is the Indian Pacific - and I'm almost certain Peter has travelled on that one...

So it's over to Peter.....thanks Peter...[;)]

Dave

[M636C]

In New South Wales, there were a set of trains known as "Daylight Expresses" which ran on all main lines. These trains started in the 1930s using lightweight cars with wooden bodies on a steel frame. These were rebuilds from obsolete cars with side doors and separate compartments without corridors, and had side corridors and sliding glazed doors to separate the compartment from the corridor. From 1949, new steel air conditioned trains of seven or eight cars were introduced.

Starting from the North, there were three services a day to Newcastle, 100 miles noth of Sydney, using two trains, this train being called the "Newcastle Flyer" or just "the Flyer". There was a "North Coast Daylight Express" to Grafton, about 450 miles and a "Northern Tablelands Express" to Armidale, inland from Grafton.

There was a "Central West Express" which ran alternate days to Dubbo and Parkes, and connecting with the night trains to these points there were the "Far West Express" (Dubbo to Cobar or Bourke) and "The Silver City Comet", Parkes to Broken Hill. These two trains were lightweight diesel trains, the "Far West" with underfloor engines and the "Comet" with a separate power car.

The Southern line had the "Riverina Express" that served Albury (on the Murray river, the border with Victoria) or Griffith (on the Murrumbidgee river, the centre of a fruit growing area) on alternate days. From 1955, a "Sydney Melbourne Daylight" was introduced, initially only to Albury connecting with a VR broad gauge train, but after standard gauge in 1962 through to Melbourne, changing the name to Intercapital Daylight. It used the two car sets from the Central West, which was replaced by a spare "Flyer" set that ran only to Orange, where a spare "Comet" set ran between Parkes and Dubbo connecting with the train from Sydney at Orange.

In 1955 two sets of underfloor engined railcars commenced running to Canberra (the National Capital) and Cooma (Then the centre of the Snowy Mountains power and irrigation scheme), the train dividing at Queanbeyan (near Canberra). This was called the "Canberra-Monaro Express".

Later the "Northern Tablelands" was replaced by underfloor engined railcars which split into two trains to Moree and Armidale at Werris Creek, and the air conditioned cars made available for the Brisbane Limited Express (an overnight train).

There was a "South Coast Daylight Express" to Nowra, initially a "Flyer" set but later a set of Budd RDC cars (the only ones built in Australia).

In the 1960s it was claimed that these trains were the most extensive service of air conditioned trains provided by a single operator anywhere in the world. Cetainly they made the best use of the vehicles they had!

The remains of this network are the current XPT services (three on the North Coast, one to Dubbo and two to Melbourne) and the Explorer (underfloor engined railcars, but newer) to Armidale and Moree and Canberra.

The 1949 trains were of two types, seven car trains with HEP power in one end car which had meal service at your seat from two galleys, or the later eight car sets which had the HEP generators moved to a baggage car, and had a Lunch Counter Car with 27 stools at a long counter. This at least kept the food service separate from the customers, and was available for snacks and drinks between meal times. The trains were usually hauled out of Sydney by "38 class" 4-6-2 locomotives originally, but were converted to diesel from 1957 to 1964.

The Queensland 'lander' trains dated from 1953 and were smaller versions of the NSW trains, many built by the same company. The Queensland trains, however, had two classes of sleeping car and full dining cars (although the three East West trains Inlander, Midlander and Westlander later had counter buffet cars substituted).

Peter

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Dave,

There was a twist to the train name "400". Apparently in one of the major cities served, possibly Milwaukee, the "top people" in society at the time formed an exclusive group numbering about 400, and this was a term in common use at the time. So as well as indicating the speed of the train "400" implied a "first class" or "exclusive" aspect.

A similar train name was the C&O "FFV" which the railway used to mean "Fast Flying Virginian", but was an established abbreviation for a group of original settlers in Virginia, one of the first colonies in what became the USA. They used it to mean the "First Families of Virginia".

The "400" explanation is in Scribbins' "The 400 Story" and that of the "FFV" in "C&O Power".

I liked the map, but thought it could easily have included a couple of single trains, like the "Twentieth Century" and "Broadway Limited", which were brands on their own and would have filled blank white paper on the map.

Peter

Peter, I too had started looking for eg The Sunset Limited (that's no surprise ha ha)
and the PRR and NYC ones.

Then the penny dropped. It's a map for just fleet brand trains (which you probably picked up on long before I did) and I think that if the Twentieth Century Limited etc were included, poor me would have ended up more confused.

By keeping to just the fleets, I was able to get my head round that particular angle.

I've been thinking...[:0] [:0] [:0] (yes yes Mudchicken dangerous stuff - I know... ha ha ha [:)])....but...a map of named trains would have to be reduced down to various U.S regions/railroads as there would have been many many named trains in the U.S. over the years....and yet..maybe it could be done?????? [;)][;)][;)]

Dave

[Modelcar]

Kozzie.....How is that new passenger train {and new railroad}, doing...I believe in the northern part of your country and I believe it was a north - south runner...It was pictured within the past year as being put into service and you fellows did some comments on it....Believe one of the questions when first offered was where were the passengers going to come from being such isolated territory...

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Kozzie.....How is that new passenger train {and new railroad}, doing...I believe in the northern part of your country and I believe it was a north - south runner...It was pictured within the past year as being put into service and you fellows did some comments on it....Believe one of the questions when first offered was where were the passengers going to come from being such isolated territory...

Quentin

i think you're referring to the extension of our railway up through the middle of the continent, from Alice Springs in Central Australia up to Darwin in the "Top End"

I would imagine the freight side of things is reasonably busy.

The pax train is "The Ghan" (rhymes with 'can') now rnning from Adelaide, South Australia all the way up past Alice Springs to Darwin. It would be wonderful trip I reckon (dream on Dave)

I haven't heard the current ridership numbers but it would be pretty popular (but not cheap...)

Peter may have "good oil" on this. Peter?

Dave

[Anonymous]

Dave and Peter--

RE: the early streamlined and underfloor power trainsets that you talk about--were these British imports, homebuilt in OZ, American, or did they come from elsewhere??

[Kozzie]

drephpe - A good Q, and I would reply if I could, but....I don't know...calling Peter...

Dave

[edblysard]

Quentin,
I think your thinking about AARC,
AustralAsia Railway Corporation...
http://www.aarc.com.au/

The former President of the PTRA, Jack Jenkins, was a project manager for them.

Ed

[M636C]

The last time I saw "The Ghan" it had 43 cars, including two automobile carriers. It included four dining cars (three first class, one economy class) and four lounge cars. It currently runs to Alice Springs once a week and to Darwin (stopping at Alice springs) once a week. They plan to extend it to Darwin twice a week, but they will need two trains with the extra distance involved.

All the locomotive hauled cars were built in Australia, the NSW eight car sets and the 'lander' cars by Commonwealth Engineering, the seven car sets by Tulloch Limited. One 'lander' train was built by Queensland Railways workshops.

The Underfloor engined railcars were built by the NSW Railways workshops. They had built twin engined Bristol "Beaufort" light bombers during WWII, so they had people trained in aluminium structures. The railcars were built like an old American wooden passenger car with a truss in the body side below the windows. This and the floor were steel and were the strength members. An aluminium body with a streamlined end that looked a bit like a US observation car was built on this frame. It had smooth sides that extended down to axle level (with access hatches for the engines). They had the same power as an RDC, twin Detroit 6/110 engines and Allison torque converters. They were so light they could haul a matching trailer (which was even lighter).

There were two basic types - the long distance sets, which had two power cars and one or two trailers numbered in the 900 (power) and 800 (trailer) series, and short distance sets, which were not air conditioned made up of one power (600 class) and one driving trailer (700 class). The power cars and driving trailers were all 64 feet long, the intermediate trailers were about 58 feet long. They could all run in sets of eight cars, but the short distance cars were usually run as four car sets. The short distance cars are still used for commuter traffic out of Newcastle. These units now have Cummins N series 14 litre engines.

The newer underfoor engined cars are stainless steel cars with curved body sides, a bit like Amfleet cars, but with bigger windows. They have roof radiators but they are mounted flush with the roof line. The long distance cars (Explorer or 2500 class) have intermediate powered cars without driving cabs and run in sets of two three or four. The "Northern Tablelands" runs as six cars, two to Moree and four to Armidale. The short distance cars (Endeavour or 2800 class) run as two car sets, coupled as four cars in peak periods. They also work out of Newcastle and run commuter services beyond the electrified zone on the Southern and South Coast lines. All of these are air conditioned and have a single Cummins KTA19 engine and torque converter driving two axles of one truck. These were built by ABB later Adtranz, now Bombardier who took over the Commonwealth Engineering plant. Seven new two car sets are being built now by United Goninan. These will couple with the Endeavours.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Peter--

Thanks for the great info.

[Modelcar]

...Thanks to all on comments of the Australian passenger train I asked about.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Peter and Dave:
After going through my copy of "Jane's World Railways" (an absolute must for anybody interested in overseas railroading), I've noticed that the Explorer control cars with their shovel noses resemble a cross between an Illinois Terminal streamliner and a Budd-built stainless-steel coach. I've also noticed that most Australian emu and dmu cars have full-width cabs, which would seem to limit flexibility in assembling a train since a car with a control cab couldn't be placed in the middle of a consist. Is there any particular reason for this?
Paul

[M636C]

Paul,

This does limit the flexibility of operation. I've just posted a tirade about political influence on the "Broken Bridge" thread. What seems to have happened is that the train operators prefer full width cabs. The Explorer has a cab console that would look good in a Star Trek set, and occupies space that could be usefully employed for almost anything else. The operators dislike the side cabins, and complain that the end doors allow water to leak in on wet days and that they have a restricted view of platforms on the off side. For whatever reason full width cabs seem to be here to stay. However, the powered intermediate Explorer cars have no cab at all, not even hostler controls, as far as I know. The Explorer is a sad example, the two types of cab cars having either a big baggage room or a huge buffet counter resulting in the two cars having the seating of one full coach. So adding an intermediate car gives a three car set twice the accommodation of a two car set. Too few intermediate cars were built initially, and often the "spare" was in continuous use. The intermediate cars are only used between cab cars, since problems would occur at reversing points otherwise. But the rule about full width cabs prevents the installation of a side cab in these cars which would greatly increase their flexibility.

Peter