Sounds like they are getting more responsive to shippers complaining about being overcharged for cars that move late or not on time.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/surface-transportation-board-seeks-input-143211159.html
You can play a lot of games with the idea of elapsed time if you don't have to consider the beginning and the end!
Still in training.
I wonder if it's less about rates, something shippers will always complain that they're too high, and more about service. Many customers have been forced from daily (5, 6, and sometimes 7 day service) to every other day or every third day service. For the convenience* of the railroad, not the customers. Sometimes this means needing extra track capacity for more cars, or being charged for Constructive Placement. (That's when the railroad offers delivery of the car, but the customer can't take it for whatever reason. The railroad says, "Fine, we'll just place the car over on some handy track and start charging you just as if we spotted it in your facility.")
*That convenience is, of course, to cut costs by reducing the number of locals or industry jobs the railroad needs to run. We had two daily (5 day a week, sometimes an extra on the weekends) locals. One east, the other west. They combined the jobs to eliminate one of them. Now the job works everyday, the assigned crew works Monday thru Friday with extra board crews on Saturday and Sunday. It works east one day and then west the next, giving everyother day service. I've heard one of the customers didn't like going to that kind of schedule, but they've adapted to it. They had no choice.
Jeff
jeffhergert(That's when the railroad offers delivery of the car, but the customer can't take it for whatever reason. The railroad says, "Fine, we'll just place the car over on some handy track and start charging you just as if we spotted it in your facility.")
Yes that is part of it. This was the result of a lawsuit in front of a Federal Judge that asked the client: "So if the railroad is late delivering the car to you, they do not pay a charge or fee but if you take longer than expected with the car you do pay a fee". The Judge did not like the answer back which was yes and had a WTF moment and got a little angry over it. Somehow it bounced up to Congress which informed the STB they wanted the practice looked into.
Another example: Railroad delivers car to a manufacturing company during third shift and the company has no third shift. Railroad attempts to pickup the car again during third shift and it's not ready. Shipper states that is unfair, especially in cases where the car was a full day late in delivery and they have other cars being delivered in between as the late car cannot be properly spotted to unload in an expedited manner.......unless they pay additional switching fees to the railroad.
CMStPnP jeffhergert (That's when the railroad offers delivery of the car, but the customer can't take it for whatever reason. The railroad says, "Fine, we'll just place the car over on some handy track and start charging you just as if we spotted it in your facility.") Yes that is part of it. This was the result of a lawsuit in front of a Federal Judge that asked the client: "So if the railroad is late delivering the car to you, they do not pay a charge or fee but if you take longer than expected with the car you do pay a fee". The Judge did not like the answer back which was yes and had a WTF moment and got a little angry over it. Somehow it bounced up to Congress which informed the STB they wanted the practice looked into. Another example: Railroad delivers car to a manufacturing company during third shift and the company has no third shift. Railroad attempts to pickup the car again during third shift and it's not ready. Shipper states that is unfair, especially in cases where the car was a full day late in delivery and they have other cars being delivered in between as the late car cannot be properly spotted to unload in an expedited manner.......unless they pay additional switching fees to the railroad.
jeffhergert (That's when the railroad offers delivery of the car, but the customer can't take it for whatever reason. The railroad says, "Fine, we'll just place the car over on some handy track and start charging you just as if we spotted it in your facility.")
I will admit to not working under PSR during my career.
In the territories I worked, industries announced the service periods they wanted the railroad in their plant switching. For the most part, industries DO NOT WANT the railroad in their plant when they are actively producing their product, as in many if not most cases the customer has to halt production while the railroad is doing what is necessary. In the areas I have worked, most industries WANTED to be serviced on the railroad 2nd or 3rd tricks.
There were two types of industries - Open Gate and Closed Gate. Open Gate industries got whatever cars arrived at the next switch after arrival. Closed Gate customers would get a Notice of Constructive Placement when the cars arrived - cars would not be placed until the customer ordered cars in by car number. In both cases the customers had 48 hours after the 'next 7AM', exclusive of weekends and holidays, to unload/load and release the cars back to the railroad in their 'new' condition. Cars held longer to load/unload will then be assessed Demurrage Charges on the number of days until the cars are released.
Bunching and Delay in transit are part and parcel of all transportation modes - rail, truck, air, water - it is the Supply Chain that we now feature as broken because Just In Time chains are not withstanding the stresses being placed on the world wide nature of the 21st Century Supply Chain.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I recall reading that auto plants (?) are/were switched at shift change. IIRC, the example given involved box cars having to be lined up so routes for forklifts could be ramped between cars spotted on parallel tracks.
Large RR freight houses used such a practice. Maybe they were under similar constraints in timing.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68I recall reading that auto plants (?) are/were switched at shift change. IIRC, the example given involved box cars having to be lined up so routes for forklifts could be ramped between cars spotted on parallel tracks. Large RR freight houses used such a practice. Maybe they were under similar constraints in timing.
When the GM Baltimore Assembly Plant was a part of my responsibilities the B&O switched together three deliveries per day to the Canton Railroad (that had the plant switching contract for many years, until they went on strike for a reason I don't know). The deliveries were 6 AM, 1 PM and 3 PM. The 6 AM and 1 PM deliveries for cars for the main part of the assembly plant that was working two shifts a day. The Canton was the switch carrier for both the B&O and PC/CR who both delivered cars to GM. The 6 AM cars were expected to be in the proper spots by shift start at 8 AM. The 1 PM cars were expected to be in place for the start of the second shift. The 3 PM delivery was to attached 'side facility' that did the upholstery function for the main part of the plant.
In 99.9% of facilities the customers do not want the railroad to be 'doing their thing' in plant when the customer is trying to make product.
In situations where HEAVY industry rely on railroads in the plant - the railroads are owned by the plant; either as a actual railroad or by having their own engine staffed by plant employees.
BaltACD CMStPnP jeffhergert (That's when the railroad offers delivery of the car, but the customer can't take it for whatever reason. The railroad says, "Fine, we'll just place the car over on some handy track and start charging you just as if we spotted it in your facility.") Yes that is part of it. This was the result of a lawsuit in front of a Federal Judge that asked the client: "So if the railroad is late delivering the car to you, they do not pay a charge or fee but if you take longer than expected with the car you do pay a fee". The Judge did not like the answer back which was yes and had a WTF moment and got a little angry over it. Somehow it bounced up to Congress which informed the STB they wanted the practice looked into. Another example: Railroad delivers car to a manufacturing company during third shift and the company has no third shift. Railroad attempts to pickup the car again during third shift and it's not ready. Shipper states that is unfair, especially in cases where the car was a full day late in delivery and they have other cars being delivered in between as the late car cannot be properly spotted to unload in an expedited manner.......unless they pay additional switching fees to the railroad. I will admit to not working under PSR during my career. In the territories I worked, industries announced the service periods they wanted the railroad in their plant switching. For the most part, industries DO NOT WANT the railroad in their plant when they are actively producing their product, as in many if not most cases the customer has to halt production while the railroad is doing what is necessary. In the areas I have worked, most industries WANTED to be serviced on the railroad 2nd or 3rd tricks. There were two types of industries - Open Gate and Closed Gate. Open Gate industries got whatever cars arrived at the next switch after arrival. Closed Gate customers would get a Notice of Constructive Placement when the cars arrived - cars would not be placed until the customer ordered cars in by car number. In both cases the customers had 48 hours after the 'next 7AM', exclusive of weekends and holidays, to unload/load and release the cars back to the railroad in their 'new' condition. Cars held longer to load/unload will then be assessed Demurrage Charges on the number of days until the cars are released. Bunching and Delay in transit are part and parcel of all transportation modes - rail, truck, air, water - it is the Supply Chain that we now feature as broken because Just In Time chains are not withstanding the stresses being placed on the world wide nature of the 21st Century Supply Chain.
I know it was an Eastern Railroad but no clue if it was CSX or NS it was long ago I read the article. Rep Dan Durban (D-IL) is after UP and CN for their Amtrak related train signaling issues requiring longer Amtrak trains so he might be the one persuing this issue as well. Have not had time to look through his website though,
CMStPnPI know it was an Eastern Railroad but no clue if it was CSX or NS it was long ago I read the article. Rep Dan Durban (D-IL) is after UP and CN for their Amtrak related train signaling issues requiring longer Amtrak trains so he might be the one persuing this issue as well. Have not had time to look through his website though,
It's Dick Durban.
Dick Durbin hasn't cared about the average blue collar working person since he left he left East St Louis Illinois 40 years ago when he was first elected to Congress. He supported giving China most favored trade status in the 90s supported NAFTA opposed just about anything that would have kept Americans in their jobs. He opposed Trump and his steel tariffs yet those very things were responsible for a steel mill in his hometown reopening. He opposed the redoing of Nafta. He thinks more regulation is good for businesses and in the past has declared that a 50 percent capital gains tax is acceptable. He also opposes anything that might be recognized as tort reform yet his home county Madison County is called the biggest judicial hellhole of the nation. Yeah quite the nice man that tries to destroy the business sector in his state.
Was East St. Louis of 40 years ago anything like it is today?
tree68 Roxanne of Nelson...
Roxanne of Nelson...
It was only produced in Nelson, it's set somewhere on your side of the 49th.
You can't have people as their houses are burning down, say "whatever you do DON'T call the fire department!!!!!!"
While not the main plot, this particular struggle of Mr. Bales is not much different from trying to explain the importance of customer service to the Class I's.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeIt was only produced in Nelson, it's set somewhere on your side of the 49th.
Yeah, I couldn't remember the name of the town... The fire truck (and the station) are lettered "Nelson," however...
As usual, the anti-union voices chime in with their corporatist, scab chorus.
After removing the prohibited political posts and personal mudslinging, I see there is hardly anything left of this thread. Feel free to continue discussing the original, trains-related topic, though.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Just as an aside.
Back years ago, when I was with the ICG, we handled a good volume of export grain going to one particular export terminal near New Orleans. They could unload one train per day.
The unit trains were backed up all the way to Chicago. They'd move one crew district per day as the unloading went on. And we had every car on every backed up train on constructive placement.
The customer complained. I mean we had cars sitting in Illinois that were billed as constructively placed in Louisiana. The answer to the complaint: "If you want them you'll get them." They were silenced.
They were shipping more than they could handle at destination. And they weren't going to use us for free storage. Good customer service is important, but you also can't let customers take advantage of you.
greyhounds jeffhergert (That's when the railroad offers delivery of the car, but the customer can't take it for whatever reason. The railroad says, "Fine, we'll just place the car over on some handy track and start charging you just as if we spotted it in your facility.") Just as an aside. Back years ago, when I was with the ICG, we handled a good volume of export grain going to one particular export terminal near New Orleans. They could unload one train per day. The unit trains were backed up all the way to Chicago. They'd move one crew district per day as the unloading went on. And we had every car on every backed up train on constructive placement. The customer complained. I mean we had cars sitting in Illinois that were billed as constructively placed in Louisiana. The answer to the complaint: "If you want them you'll get them." They were silenced. They were shipping more than they could handle at destination. And they weren't going to use us for free storage. Good customer service is important, but you also can't let customers take advantage of you.
Customers are always looking for 'free storage' if they can get it - they are looking for free anything if they can get it.
Chessie System had a similar situation when the Export Coal market took off in the late 70's. Transshippers were loading thousands of loads of coal and heading them to the East Coast ports and clogged them to a stop. Chessie in steps, Embargoed the traffic and set up a Permit System for all the transshippers wherein they were only allowed to load coal based on a Permit issued by Chessie and predicated on the arrival date of the particular ship the coal was scheduled to be loaded on. Ports can only handle so many vessels at any point in time and rail yards serving those ports can only handle so many rail cars at one time.
My boss runs a SIT yard. He'd be thrilled to just have his cars show up within a decent delivery time frame. We finally got that one that was wandering it's way all over the USA on the UP last week. Just 4 months after we ordered that shipment of 100 tons of resin in it. BNSF once they finally got it took less than 2 days to get it to us from Kansas city and that includes getting it onto the local at Galesburg.
Sounds similar to the way that lumber was marketed and shipped.
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