I found this video yesterday:
https://youtu.be/LnNYXXgq5-w
While primarily dealing with passenger trains, it brings up an interesting idea that I have seen elserwhere. It is that rail infrastructure should be nationalized while private operators remain in an open access system, similar to European countries.
What does everyone think of this model? Would this be an improvement over the current system?
Circular file fodder.
This topic has been rehashed multiple times, mostly by the unlamented "futuremodal", who believed that open access, RoadRailers and dual-power locomotives would save railroading.
In Europe and elsewhere, open access came as a result of privatization of operating entities, while the rights-of-way were retained by the government. With open access, any operating entity could theoretically operate anywhere, paying appropriate fees to the right-of-way owner. But, just because anybody could operate everywhere doesn't mean that anybody is going to operate on an underutilized branch with a handful of small customers.
I doubt that open access would be an improvement in North America.
We already have a form of open access. It's called shortlines.
wasd It is that rail infrastructure should be nationalized while private operators remain in an open access system,
This was proposed as early as railroading's beginnings here in the 19th Century, and on-and-off ever since. It's always been dismissed as unworkable for various reasons.
Infrastructure experts give the Americian mainline railroads a high grade, while giving the public highways a low grade. What do you think would happen if the railroad tracks became public entities?
MidlandMike Infrastructure experts give the Americian mainline railroads a high grade, while giving the public highways a low grade. What do you think would happen if the railroad tracks became public entities?
If those *experts* looked objectively at some European and Asian ROWs and compared them with ours, I'm not so sure our grade would be so high. Same deal with Interstates vs Autobahns. Citations?
Open access would certainly change the dynamic.
Think air - the big boys are the primary movers of people and cargo, but if you want to fly people or things around, all you need to do is buy a plane and be qualified to fly it.
With rail, if you wanted to bid on that shuttle job, and had the resources to make it happen, you could. You might rent/lease the equipment at first, but as long as there was track between point A and point B, you could do it. You might have to fight for a slot on a busy line, but few lines are so busy that you wouldn't be able to get on.
Traffic control would have to look like ATC. File a plan and go.
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CSSHEGEWISCH I doubt that open access would be an improvement in North America.
Australia has also structured its railway systems in this manner. Their track infrastructure is also owned by the government.
Britain had initially privatized the infrastructure, as a company called Railtrack. It didn't go well and ended up being re-nationalized.
Open access also opens the door to potential instability, in addition to the big players I think you would see a number of 'fly by night' operators spring up and disappear one after the other, just as in the trucking industry.
Their rolling antiques and tricked out owner-operator locomotives would be neat sights, as seen in Australia, and such a model would probably make it easier for steam locomotives to get track time, as is the case in Britain.
But I think such a model would hasten the end of carload freight, which must be aggregated into larger trains to be economical. How much of that remains in Britain, western Europe and Australia?
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-an Articulate Malcontent
Would open access in this country have the government owning the track or just mandating that private railroad companies allow open access to their track for private train operators on a fee based system?
If it is the former, how efficient would it be to add Government ownership and/or maintenance of track to the current system of private companies owning track and trains? I understand that the basic purpose of this type of open access is to ensure fairness in rate pricing, similar to the purpose of reciprocal switching.
Carload freight has all but vanished in the UK, the hauls are too short to compete with trucking. Not sure about elsewhere.
The United Kingdom landmass encompasses approximately 93,628 square miles.
For comparison and context, the State of Minnesota encompasses about 86,943 square miles and the State of Michigan encompasses about 96,716 square miles.
So the whole UK is slightly larger than Minnesota by an area of about 81 miles by 81 miles square and slightly smaller than Michigan by an area of about 50 miles by 61 miles.
I suppose some freight gets to and from the continent by The Chunnel.
SD70DudeBut I think such a model would hasten the end of carload freight, which must be aggregated into larger trains to be economical. How much of that remains in Britain, western Europe and Australia?
Exactly. After the steel wheel on steel rail friction advantage, I think combining many cars into a single train is rail's next biggest advantage. Fragmentation would not help the rail industry.
charlie hebdo MidlandMike Infrastructure experts give the Americian mainline railroads a high grade, while giving the public highways a low grade. What do you think would happen if the railroad tracks became public entities? If those *experts* looked objectively at some European and Asian ROWs and compared them with ours, I'm not so sure our grade would be so high. Same deal with Interstates vs Autobahns. Citations?
The experts are apparently American as in American Society of Civil Engineers. They grade rail=B (higest), Roads and Transit=D as is most other public infrastructure.
https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/2021-IRC-Executive-Summary.pdf
I believe that the US Experts would look at the acclaimed European & Asian ROW's and feature that despite how pretty they look they are too lightly constructed to be of any use in the USA for US size and weight trains.
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BaltACD charlie hebdo MidlandMike Infrastructure experts give the Americian mainline railroads a high grade, while giving the public highways a low grade. What do you think would happen if the railroad tracks became public entities? If those *experts* looked objectively at some European and Asian ROWs and compared them with ours, I'm not so sure our grade would be so high. Same deal with Interstates vs Autobahns. Citations? I believe that the US Experts would look at the acclaimed European & Asian ROW's and feature that despite how pretty they look they are too lightly constructed to be of any use in the USA for US size and weight trains.
If the topic of this thread has anyting to do with open access in the U.S., I don't see how the rail infrastructue in Europe is an impediment.
charlie hebdo If those *experts* looked objectively at some European and Asian ROWs and compared them with ours, I'm not so sure our grade would be so high. Same deal with Interstates vs Autobahns. Citations?
Is the European network built for heavy haul? When you have RoW funded and maintained by public subsidy and built for passenger service.. Comparisons are minimal..
SD60MAC9500 Is the European network built for heavy haul? When you have RoW funded and maintained by public subsidy and built for passenger service.. Comparisons are minimal..
The standard rail used on European Rail Networks is UIC60 section which means 60 kg per meter or 121.1 lbs per yard. So about what you would find on secondary mainlines in North America.
I know more about Switzerland than about the other European countries so let me explain how it works in Switzerland. In Switzerland in the Federal government subsidized carload freight with a grant of 600k Swiss Francs in 2019. The money comes from a mileage tax levied on all trucks using Swiss roads. This tax is also is what funded the constuction of both the Gotthard and Loetschburg Base Tunnels, so carload freight isn't the only beneficiary. In Switzerland all carload freight is handled by the National Railway SBB Cargo. There in 2019 there were 478 points served, with overnight service between any two points, and same day service possible between some points. The SBB Cargo network is centered around three humpyards located near the cities of Zuerich, Basle, and Lausanne. Each of these network yards is supported by smaller yards nearer the customers. The humpyards work six days per week, on Sundays all industries that can be closed must be closed. Each humpyard operates three cycles per day. Each cycle consists of trains arriving from the other two humpyards, plus the regional satellite yards and local customers served directly. This is followed by all inbound cars being humped, and then trains departing to the other two humpyards, regional satellite yards, and customers. Large customers can be served three times per day, small ones only once, but everyone receives daily service if they have anything to ship or receive. Some customers are located on narrow-gauge lines and their cars are transfered by setting the whole railcar with its trucks onto special narrow-gauge trucks. Cars for Germany are handled at Basle, while cars for Austria are handled at Zuerich. Cars for Italy are handled through the small yard at Chiasso, or at Bellinzona.
Here is an example of a standard gauge freight car on narrow gauge Rollbocks
Rollbock
Came across this while looking for something else.
Why is Europe so absurdly backward compared to the U.S. in rail freight transport - FreightWaves
I once saw a youtube video of a mixed manifest type inter-country freight move. What surprised me viewing it was; first, there was what appeared to be some "loose car" freight in the train's consist. Second was that the length, which IIRC, approached 1 mile. Reading some comments on videos of European freight trains, most (I suppose might be country dependent) are limited to 750 or 800 meters. Mostly to fit an infrastructure designed for passenger service.
Jeff
The author of that article has a very skewed perspective. Imagine if the whole of the USA's population and industries was squeezed into an area bounded by the Mississippi River on the west, north of a line drawn at the Virginia/North Carolina border, and elsewhere by the US - Canada border. Now distribute everything in clumpy cities everywhere within that area. How could you serve that continent? How good is CSX or NS Intermodal service between New York and Cleveland or Boston and Baltimore? Is their carload service any better? At least in Europe they are trying to serve just such markets, in the USA the railroads just can't be bothered.
Without the subsidy would any of that Swiss carload freight move by rail?
beaulieuHere is an example of a standard gauge freight car on narrow gauge Rollbocks Rollbock
Is there a speed limit or other limits, like grade or rack section? How do they deal with coupler hight difference?
SD70Dude Without the subsidy would any of that Swiss carload freight move by rail?
The busiest narrow gauge railway handling standard gauge freight cars is the Aare Seeland Mobil located east of Solothurn with relatively easy grades, no rack needed.
Here is a photo of the railcar used to move standard gauge freight cars
ASm De121
Note the high mounted buffers and draw hook.
Re: east of Solothurn
Geez, all that expensive electrified narrow (metre?) gauge to go to a passenger terminus at Moosseedorf. I was expecting a large industry somewhere along the line but there was nary a siding. Did I miss the busy freight part?
Rick
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Well busy is a relative term. About a dozen freight cars in and a similar number of empties out. I don't know what you are using, Bing, Google Maps, Google Earth. Look just east of the town of Oberbipp. You will see fuel storage tanks and a small yard. The tank farm typically gets 10 cars per day, give or take. The other manufacturing facilities on the south side of the tracks get 1 or 2 cars per day.
The other section of the railway runs west from Biel along the south shore of the Bielersee (Lake Biel) and serves two aggregate quarries, the first near Sutz, and the second near Siselen.
rixflix Re: east of Solothurn Geez, all that expensive electrified narrow (metre?) gauge to go to a passenger terminus at Moosseedorf. I was expecting a large industry somewhere along the line but there was nary a siding. Did I miss the busy freight part?
No, what you missed is the whole railway. You are looking too far to the south. The east half of the ASm begins at Solothurn Bahnhof. It runs ENE through Flumenthal, and Oberbipp, to Niederbipp. Passenger trains continue south to Langenthal. The freight operation is from Niederbipp where freight cars are put on Rollbocks and moved to Oberbipp. The rest of the line is passenger only except for the rare MOW movement.
The line passing through Moosseedorf is the Regionalverkehr Bern Solothurn (RBS). Moosseedorf is on Bern S-Bahn line 8, which continues on to Solothurn.
Gotcha. Followed the wrong narrow gauge from Solothurn. Thanks for a pleasant time in Earth's Switzerland.
wasdWhat does everyone think of this model? Would this be an improvement over the current system?
In this country it would be nothing short of a disaster. Look already how the government does not fund Amtrak properly or even the Interstate Highway system, there would be ups and downs in funding followed by years of deferred maintenance and then years of excessive spending.
The reason private running of infrastructure failed in the UK is they had no historical firm with the experience in maintaining rail infrastructure efficiently. The outsourced to some learn on the job firm that never existed before.
If we were to try this in this country I would put a rep from each of the current Class I railroads on the board of directors. Draw infrastructure management from the Class I railroads on potentially apportioned or rotating basis. Have government representation in the areas of safety but still lean heavily on Class I railroad experience. Have the entire organization submit a 5-10 year funding plan to Congress and have it funded over that period of time. Allow the organization to also float bonds and seek loans to make-up for potential funding shortcommings or to fund projects with high IRR's. Perhaps that would work in this country.
No way would I turn rail infrastructure in this country entirely to the government. It would result in massive unncessary spending as well as swings in funding from a feast or famine budget........along with Congressional critter micro-management. I mean just look at Chicago's METRA and how that organization is living well beyond it's means and results in ever escalating tax collections and funding shortfalls. Yes METRA, manages to keep most of it's rail network maintained but it's both a financial basket case and filled with political cronies related to each other via extended family ties......not a model we want to repeat anywhere, especially on the National level.
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