Anybody up to date on current events will read that the town of Lytton, B.C. has burnt down. Over 90% of the village was destroyed by a fire. Early claims are blaming CN for the fire. Record breaking temps out west has created some very dry conditions, and while sparks from brakes could set a blaze in these conditions. There's no evidence as to what the cause was.
This isn't the first time CN and the Lytton area have had an issue. Last year sparks from a CN track team started a blaze that burned over 2250 Hectares of land.
SD90dude has already discussed some of this in the thread on the other bridge fire. There is directional running on CN and CP in this area, which is at the 'fork' between two rivers, and one of the two bridges caught fire and burned to the deck. Apparently in the desire to optimize the directional running, sidings were shortened or removed and the capability to run trains with one line disabled is now minimal...
Story is that a fire aboard a lumber car was associated with the bridge fire, and perhaps by now it may be clearer 'which might have started which'.
It will be interesting to learn how the fire spread to the town and so thoroughly destroyed it.
I looked up Lytton Fire Department, but could find no specific information on it.
They have a two stall firehouse that might house four apparatus. As such, once the second building caught fire, they were instantly overwhelmed.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Some might recall a relatively bad derailment at Lytton about ten years ago, and CN had to realign the route across the Thompson. I have posted this photo I took about the time it was recommissioned. This bridge is now gone:
selector Some might recall a relatively bad derailment at Lytton about ten years ago, and CN had to realign the route across the Thompson. I have posted this photo I took about the time it was recommissioned. This bridge is now gone:
I'm curious as to whether trains will be detoured and how.
CN has the option of using the out-of-service-as-a-through-route ex-British Columbia route via Prince George and Lillooet, though there is another fire going northeast of Lillooet. BNSF from Everett looks like the only other alternative. (And it's a good thing BNSF raised the clearances on its tunnels south of Bellingham to accommodate doublestacks a few years back....)
--Mark Meyer
I always think of this when wildfires are reported out west. It just seems so much heartache could be avoided. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/the-malibu-house-that-was-prepared-for-one-of-the-states-worst-wildfires-11553783662
Apparently CN is considering sending some traffic down the ex-BC Rail route. I suspect that it cannot handle much, and there are very few crews qualified to operate there. I suspect any rerouted traffic would be limited to that which usually runs on trains 354 and 355, the daily manifests which operate between Vancouver and Prince George via Kamloops and McBride.
The ex-BC Rail route cannot handle doublestacks, and even if the rest of the line were cleared there are two tunnels in the North Vancouver-Horseshoe Bay area that are too short for them.
The deck has been completely destroyed on CN's Thompson River bridge at Lytton. Apparently a CP bridge in the area also suffered damage, and both lines are still closed as of this writing. Trains are being parked across the system.
From the railway perspective this fire happened in the worst possible place, the CN and CP lines run within a few blocks of each other at Lytton, but there is no connection between the two there.
The cause is still under investigation, but locals have been quick to blame the railways. Reading between the lines, this folks in this article would seem to be speaking about a CP train, as their line runs at a higher elevation through Lytton (CN's is immediately beside the river).
https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/7998818/lytton-bc-wildfire-train-brake-smoke/amp/
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Overmod SD90dude
SD90dude
Who's that?
This region of southern B.C. is the closest thing Canada has to a hot desert. Lots of dry brush in the area. Lytton had made headlines the previous day for setting a new national temperature record of nearly +50°C (that's in your 120s). The area was a tinderbox, and something gave it a spark.
Wildfires spreading quickly through urban areas are unfortunately not a new phenomenon in western North America, with our tendency to build wood houses with vinyl siding and asphalt shingle roofs (cedar is even worse).
I found the post I'd gotten my information from, by a knowledgeable Vancouver railroader. I haven't heard any further details on what started first.
"Train 355 arrived in Boston bar with a burning lumber car yesterday. It created a minor delay and damage to 14 ties on the Martinson Bridge just east of Boston Bar. That has already been fixed.
It is unknown if the burning lumber car is related to the Lytton fire. The car could have caught fire and sparked the Lytton fire. Or the early stages of the Lytton fire could be responsible for the burning lumber car. Or they may neither be related to each other. It's too early to know.
Forestry services is speculating that the Lytton fire started as a house fire. The Lytton fire brigade isn't saying nothing at this point."
SD70Dude Hi All The Lytton Fire Dept isn't saying anything as their Fire Hall and equipment was destroyed in the fire. It basically hit and consumed the community so rapidly that the only thing residents could do was evacuate....very quickly. 90% of the village was burned to the ground and an adjacent Indian Reserve was completely destroyed. The fire is being fought by the BC Wildfire Service. It is classed as out of control and covers about 8900 hectares. The fire covers both CN and CP lines, given where it started and how close each are to the other in the Lytton townsite. There was a picture of the fire of the fire on the front page of the Vancouver Sun this morning. It is truly scary. Hwy 1 and most local roads are closed as well so that crews can navigate the area. Damage done to both railways and the hwy. CN has set up a command centre in Boston Bar, just south of Lytton, and is working with the authorities to determine the fire's cause, which is of course under investigation. So far only two people are known dead, a stragic story in itself. The area is a tinder box every year. I regularly drive Hwy 1 through the Canyon during the summer every year and rare is the time when there are no fires. It's also a wind tunnel so any kind of control of wildfires is made that much more difficult. It's a real tragedy. Charlie Chilliwack, BC (about an hour by road from Lytton) Overmod SD90dude Who's that? This region of southern B.C. is the closest thing Canada has to a hot desert. Lots of dry brush in the area. Lytton had made headlines the previous day for setting a new national temperature record of nearly +50°C (that's in your 120s). The area was a tinderbox, and something gave it a spark. Wildfires spreading quickly through urban areas are unfortunately not a new phenomenon in western North America, with our tendency to build wood houses with vinyl siding and asphalt shingle roofs (cedar is even worse). I found the post I'd gotten my information from, by a knowledgeable Vancouver railroader. I haven't heard any further details on what started first. "Train 355 arrived in Boston bar with a burning lumber car yesterday. It created a minor delay and damage to 14 ties on the Martinson Bridge just east of Boston Bar. That has already been fixed. It is unknown if the burning lumber car is related to the Lytton fire. The car could have caught fire and sparked the Lytton fire. Or the early stages of the Lytton fire could be responsible for the burning lumber car. Or they may neither be related to each other. It's too early to know. Forestry services is speculating that the Lytton fire started as a house fire. The Lytton fire brigade isn't saying nothing at this point."
Hi All
The Lytton Fire Dept isn't saying anything as their Fire Hall and equipment was destroyed in the fire. It basically hit and consumed the community so rapidly that the only thing residents could do was evacuate....very quickly. 90% of the village was burned to the ground and an adjacent Indian Reserve was completely destroyed.
The fire is being fought by the BC Wildfire Service. It is classed as out of control and covers about 8900 hectares. The fire covers both CN and CP lines, given where it started and how close each are to the other in the Lytton townsite. There was a picture of the fire of the fire on the front page of the Vancouver Sun this morning. It is truly scary. Hwy 1 and most local roads are closed as well so that crews can navigate the area. Damage done to both railways and the hwy.
CN has set up a command centre in Boston Bar, just south of Lytton, and is working with the authorities to determine the fire's cause, which is of course under investigation.
So far only two people are known dead, a stragic story in itself.
The area is a tinder box every year. I regularly drive Hwy 1 through the Canyon during the summer every year and rare is the time when there are no fires. It's also a wind tunnel so any kind of control of wildfires is made that much more difficult.
It's a real tragedy.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC (about an hour by road from Lytton)
SD70Dude Overmod SD90dude Who's that? This region of southern B.C. is the closest thing Canada has to a hot desert. Lots of dry brush in the area. Lytton had made headlines the previous day for setting a new national temperature record of nearly +50°C (that's in your 120s). The area was a tinderbox, and something gave it a spark. Wildfires spreading quickly through urban areas are unfortunately not a new phenomenon in western North America, with our tendency to build wood houses with vinyl siding and asphalt shingle roofs (cedar is even worse). I found the post I'd gotten my information from, by a knowledgeable Vancouver railroader. I haven't heard any further details on what started first. "Train 355 arrived in Boston bar with a burning lumber car yesterday. It created a minor delay and damage to 14 ties on the Martinson Bridge just east of Boston Bar. That has already been fixed. It is unknown if the burning lumber car is related to the Lytton fire. The car could have caught fire and sparked the Lytton fire. Or the early stages of the Lytton fire could be responsible for the burning lumber car. Or they may neither be related to each other. It's too early to know. Forestry services is speculating that the Lytton fire started as a house fire. The Lytton fire brigade isn't saying nothing at this point."
To satisfy my own curiosity, I found that 8900 hectares is a tad over 34 square miles, or 89 square kilometers.
I always find it curious that these fires are reported in acreage. How many people realize there's 640 acres in a square mile? I think the square miles have a bigger impact than the acres.
tree68To satisfy my own curiosity, I found that 8900 hectares is a tad over 34 square miles, or 89 square kilometers. I always find it curious that these fires are reported in acreage. How many people realize there's 640 acres in a square mile? I think the square miles have a bigger impact than the acres.
And when they report it he hectares - virtually nobody knows what they are talking about, as that is not a commonly used measurement unit.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
A further update from a reliable inside source:
"The RCMP and Coroner's Office are investigating and they have not released the scene to either railway. CN hasn't been able to do anything. There is no known timeline for when those agencies will allow CN to access and begin repairing infrastructure. As such, there is no known timeline for reopening.
The Former BC Rail North Line which hadn't been used recently and which runs through Lillooet is being brought back on line as a detour route. It will be able to handle a limited amount of traffic. Coal that can be diverted to Prince Rupert is starting to be diverted that way."
tree68 How many people realize there's 640 acres in a square mile?
How many people realize there's 640 acres in a square mile?
MC for one.
A more obscure question would be: How many people realize that an acre is ten square chains? Or 160 square rods? (1 chain = 66ft, 1 rod = 16.5 ft, therefor 4 rods per chain.) A statute mile is 80 chains, so a square statute mile is 6400 square chains - divide by 10 to get 640 acres per square mile.
Ten square chains can be represented by a rectangle with widt of two chains and length of 5 chains (330 by 132 feet). A hectare is a square 100 meters on a side, i.e. 328.084 feet, so is slightly under 2.5 acres (square 330 feet on a side).
Erik_MagMC for one.
Wouldn't doubt it for a second...
As I recall, an acre is about 208.9 feet (for simplicities sake, call it 200') on a side (square root of 43560), which is the rule of thumb I use when I try to picture an acre.
While I'm not conversant in rods and chains, I have, at least, hear of them.
A significant part of what I know about such measures came from a seventh grade "Michigan History & Government" class, wherein we discussed the township system used in the Northwest Territories - MI, IN, OH, WI, and part of MN. I lived in Township 2 North, Range 7 East.
Then there's the description of property, which may include being located in the southeast corner of the northeast corner of section 10, township 2N R7E...
When I was a surveyor I'd often find perches in title searches. Those searches frequently turned into fascinating rabbit holes for a long rainy day. I couldnt in good conscience bill all of the time. And I sometimes still do mental triangulations when driving. Love that trig.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
tree68 As I recall, an acre is about 208.9 feet (for simplicities sake, call it 200') on a side (square root of 43560), which is the rule of thumb I use when I try to picture an acre. While I'm not conversant in rods and chains, I have, at least, hear of them.
208.71032557 feet to be a bit more pedantic..... You get the same result with 66 x SQRT(10). An American football field is another way to visualize an acre.
Which of course comes from the Northwest Ordnance of 1787, which was passed by the congress formed under the Articles of Confederation (i.e. it predates the Constitution). It is also one of the most consequential laws in U.S. History. Much of California is covered by the township system as well. One of the provisions was that slavery was prohibited in lands consituting the Northwest Territories.
tree68 I looked up Lytton Fire Department, but could find no specific information on it. They have a two stall firehouse that might house four apparatus. As such, once the second building caught fire, they were instantly overwhelmed.
Lytton actually only had one engine (a 1998 Freightliner FL80) and one rescue truck (a 1993 Ford F350). They do have a new Freightliner M2 engine on order.
Another update:
"The outlook keeps getting pushed back. It seems that the superstructure of the bridge is intact but most of the rails and ties through town as well as the bridge surface will need to be replaced. Best guess is 5 days for this.
CP is in a bit better shape and is supposed to be running today and will begin giving CN some slots to run trains as well. As of right now however, no Vancouver employees have been deadheaded into position at Boston Bar. There were some Eastbound trains on the lineup for early this morning but they have fallen back to 1800 this evening.
Perhaps a couple of Eastbounds will be run this evening, but we will have to wait and see."
Latest is that "...the fire started inside the town." No word on what it was, but they're now reasonably certain it wasn't an onrushing wildfire that swept through the town from a pre-existing blaze.
GreasemonkeyLytton actually only had one engine (a 1998 Freightliner FL80) and one rescue truck (a 1993 Ford F350). They do have a new Freightliner M2 engine on order.
I couldn't find any specific info on the department, and was being generous in suggesting they might pack as many as four in there.
That's not how I'd want to gain a new fire hall, though.
The CP line was reopened this afternoon and trains are starting to move. The first was CP 112, passing through Lytton at about 14:00 Pacific time.
The first westbound looks to be CN 111, which departed Kamloops a couple hours later.
Thank you 70Dude for the updates.
As there are no useful long sidings for most of the Directional Running Zone, trains are being fleeted west of Basque, for a few hours each way at a time. The connecting track at Cisco has been resurrected and westbounds are switching back to CN there. It got rebuilt some years ago after another derailment.
http://www.okthepk.ca/dataCprSiding/news/2007/07040202.htm
Also, this:
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-first-nations-in-british-columbia-threaten-to-block-rail-traffic-over/
Transport Canada has ordered train operations through Lytton to halt for 48 hours.
https://www.reuters.com/world/canada-orders-48-hour-halt-train-movement-parts-british-columbia-after-wildfires-2021-07-09/
And the TSB is going to investigate the origin of the fire, with "a specific CP train" in mind.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6097390
The TSB investigation has finished, with no link identified between either railroad and the fire.
https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-investigations/rail/2021/r21v0143/r21v0143.html
Unfortunately, and predictably, the report will leave something wanting. If the claims are true, the Lyttonites state that none of the so-called witnesses was interviewed. I'm guessing none of them thought to snap a photo with a time-stamp, or to shoot even 6 seconds of video.
So much for that class action everyone was hoping would fill in for the insurance.
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