Has BNSF or UP ever put a helper on a autorack or double stack trains?

[Anonymous]

I was just wondering if BNSF or UP have ever used helpers or I think DPU's on the back of hot double stack or auto rack trains?

I think it would be a awesome sight if they did.

I know BNSF uses helpers on the back of grain trains.

[Anonymous]

Not sure about those american roads, but CP, here in British Columbia anyway, puts DPU power on just about everything.

They seem to have a fixation with a single locomotive up front and a single one on the very end, and if there is more tonnage than two can handle, they'll put 2 on the head end and one on the very rear.

Don't often see mid-train DPUs anymore, I suppose it is easier to pop one on the end then it is to marshall it somewhere in the middle.

In these Parts CN doesn't use any DPUs at all, ever, all power is on the head end.

[CShaveRR]

I would think that you'd probably not see DP units on an auto-rack train, because--loaded or empty--they're some of the lightest cars around, and a train requiring the added power would probably be too long to efficiently run anywhere!

Intermodal with DPU--I haven't seen it on this end of the UP, but that's not saying anything about conditions west of North Platte--or even west of Rochelle, for that matter.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CShaveRR

I would think that you'd probably not see DP units on an auto-rack train, because--loaded or empty--they're some of the lightest cars around, and a train requiring the added power would probably be too long to efficiently run anywhere!

Intermodal with DPU--I haven't seen it on this end of the UP, but that's not saying anything about conditions west of North Platte--or even west of Rochelle, for that matter.

I haven't seen a DPU on a pure autorack train, but I have seen it many times on an intermodal/autorack train.

There are certain restrictions on CP for DPUs concerning cushion drawbar limitations, and short car long car combinations, therefore it's unlikely you would ever see a DPU on the end of a pure autorack train, at least on the CP.

[Anonymous]

Out here on the East-West Line here on the UP,The UP "Only" uses Head End Power on their Stack Trains&Grains. The Only Trains around here that get DPU's are the Coal Loads&the Empty's. The Only Manifest Train that I see that has the DPU mode in Omaha is the MCBKC.

[Anonymous]

The Blue Mountains are the place to go to see UP Autoracks with rear-end dupe power. The ASENP generally goes conventional but does occasionally come out of Seattle heavier than 5600 tons (the cutoff for conventional manifest/autos). It will pull up to the risers for fuel/recrew while the hostlers take the two remotes out to through the 12 Unlocks to the mainline. In addition, a good portion of the eastbound originators out of Hinkle go 'dupe', either in a 3X2 or 4X2 configuration: whichever will meet the 2.5 hptt requirement of the Blues. The loaded grainers, soda ash and (once upon a time) coal trains have a four/five pack of dupes placed within the middle of the train at Nampa, Idaho for the westbound run over the Blues to Hinkle where the five-pack is removed and the train is returned to a conventional configuration for the run down the Gorge. The SD40-2 helpers disappeared in 95 with the implementation of the dupe program. However, you can still find a set (HNANA1 and 2) that give bulk trains an extra shove out of Glenns Ferry.

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill
DPUs on almost every double-stack train that originates at Los Angeles/Long Beach, but that the plant capacity is not yet sufficient to accommodate running every train as a long train (thus needing DPUs).

Mid-afternoon Sat 1/15 an eastbound went through Yorba Linda/Anaheim in So Cal, with 2 BNSF units in the lead and 1 NS unit + 1 BNSF unit at the rear

[dwil89]

NS will run rear helpers on Stack Trains and Autoracks in either direction over the Mountain between Altoona and Johnstown in Pennsylvania. They'll run without helpers on these if tonnage allows, but helpers are not a rarity on them either. Dave Williams http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nsaltoonajohnstown

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

I appreciate the update on the OSL-OWR&N, Ryan. It's been years since I've had the opportunity to see it west of Pocatello. Medbury Hill is one of the great unremarked places in western railroading, in my opinion, and I'm happy to see that helpers out of Glenns Ferry still work it. Do they still ever run east up King Hill?

Any additional rundown on operations up there, and on the Washy, would be appreciated. Don't know what I'll do with it other than file it in my head, but someday it will be useful.

You're very welcome; i'm pleasantly surprised that I still remember much of that stuff. For the past year-and-a-half i've been trying to pu***he railroad stuff out of my head and replace it with lithic attributes and faunal analyses! :) I still occasionally get an update on the latest-and-greatest in the loco dept. (over a pint and a spot of lunch) from my good friends that remain on the 'inside'. I don't get over to Eastern Washington and the Washy Country all that often but like the shop, I still have a number of good friends that work the rails between Eastport and Hinkle. They call now and then to ensure that i'm applying myself and earning good grades. :)

[Anonymous]

I live at Lawton, NV on Union Pacific's "Overland Route," and have seen both westbound and eastbound autos with one DPU on the rear. But, most times all the power is on the headend.

SP9033 - Lawton, NV

[n2mopac]

Central Missouri sees plenty of coal, autorack, and double stack on the UP. Every coal train has a pusher, even the empties headed back west, but I have never seen DP on a double stack or auto rack here.

Ron

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill


Unfortunately, the terminology has become blurred by the practice of railroads of running what is actually a helper but calling it Distributed Power, and vice versa. This is unfortunate not because it confuses us poor observers at trackside (like we matter!), but because it dilutes the clarity of the specific advantages and disadvantages of Distributed Power and helpers within railroads themselves. By confusing the terms, it deludes some of those inside the railroad hierarchy to start thinking that the only purpose of those extra units is to overcome some grades en route, not to improve train handling. It deludes others into thinking that the only reason they're there is to improve train handling, not to overcome grades. This matters because in some cases it might actually be cheaper to establish a traditional manned helper operation and abolish DP, and in other cases to abolish a manned helper operation and establish DP.

That's interesting - so on UP's "Overland Route" over Donner Pass these units that are positioned at Sparks, NV for helping trains over the "Hill" are really remote helpers, master - slave, like the SP8300s used on the Modoc and not a DPU operation like one would see in the flatlands? These units ping pong between Sparks and Roseville, very much like the SP 8300s went back and forth between Klamath Falls, OR and Wendel, CA


Jim - Lawton, NV 235.5

[Anonymous]

I used to see some of the old Geneva Steel (Utah) coal trains with two locomotives up front, two more somewhere in the middle, and two on the end, and they were usually all AC44CWs in Southern Pacific paint. Was this a case of the railroad experimenting with positioning the locomotives to get the best train handling characteristics? Later, I saw the same trains, only with three locomotives on the head end, and either a single locomotive, or a pair on the rear.
One more question- what determines placing one or two distributed power locomotives on the rear of the train?

[wcfan4ever]

I have never seen this occur but I think it would be cool to see some change istead of always seeing one on a coal train. Of course where I live, there is no reason for this to occur.

[broncoman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SP9033

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill


Unfortunately, the terminology has become blurred by the practice of railroads of running what is actually a helper but calling it Distributed Power, and vice versa. This is unfortunate not because it confuses us poor observers at trackside (like we matter!), but because it dilutes the clarity of the specific advantages and disadvantages of Distributed Power and helpers within railroads themselves. By confusing the terms, it deludes some of those inside the railroad hierarchy to start thinking that the only purpose of those extra units is to overcome some grades en route, not to improve train handling. It deludes others into thinking that the only reason they're there is to improve train handling, not to overcome grades. This matters because in some cases it might actually be cheaper to establish a traditional manned helper operation and abolish DP, and in other cases to abolish a manned helper operation and establish DP.

That's interesting - so on UP's "Overland Route" over Donner Pass these units that are positioned at Sparks, NV for helping trains over the "Hill" are really remote helpers, master - slave, like the SP8300s used on the Modoc and not a DPU operation like one would see in the flatlands? These units ping pong between Sparks and Roseville, very much like the SP 8300s went back and forth between Klamath Falls, OR and Wendel, CA


Jim - Lawton, NV 235.5

Would they become DPUs on the downhill side of the run from Donner? I worked at one of my company's yards in Auburn which is right next to the westbound track and while the lead units didn't sound to be in dynamic the two or three ACs in the rear would be loud enough (in dynamic) to be heard for a few minutes before they actually passed.
Why was it so hard for SP to run DPU/helper in the Shastas to help avoid what I think they called "shoestringing"?
And, to add to the post I very rarely/never see autoracks eastbound with helper over Donner but almost always see them on westbounders.

Dave

[Anonymous]

This thread and the topic of dupes lead me to pull out some literature I received while attending 'DPU School' . The UP-Sanctioned definition of Distributed Power is the remote control of multiple consists within a train by the engineer on the lead unit. Being a student of history, I searched for and found some old (Milwaukee) Locotrol manuals from the mid 70s and compared them to the 'rocket science' of DPU.

After reviewing the literature, I concluded that the biggest improvement with the GE-Harris stuffs (besides the tech stuffs) was that a loco has the capability to be a leader and a remote; not so with old-time Locotrol. Over a cup of joe, an old-head roundhouse foreman told me about the excessive amounts of trial & error that were required in finding a 'master' and a 'slave' that would converse with one another. He mentioned he would spend the entirety of a shift just finding a compatible set of RCS units...and then ultimately building a set out of them.

Mark does a very good job of laying out the reqs for dupes and their appropriate configurations. I might add with a smile :) that it also takes alot of trial and error, not unlike the 'good old days' of Locotrol, to find the one combination that works the best. Several configurations were tested on bulk trains in the early days of the Blue Mountain Dupe Fleet (3X3X2, 4X2X2, etc.) until the five-pack config (4X5) was 'stumbled upon' and found to be the best of the lot.

'Putting up the Fence' is the term used at the UP when the engineer will operate the remotes independently of the lead consist. A good example of this is when a dpu train tops the summit of the West Mountain at Kamela, Oregon. As the lead consist starts downhill towards Meacham or Motanic, the engineer will put up the fence...and place the lead consist in dynamics while the remotes are still in power and chugging up to the summit. Once the remotes crest the summit, the fence is 'dropped' and the remotes once again respond to the engineer's actions via the control stand rather than the computer screen of Harris Box. A similar situation may be occuring where you are observing the lead set and remote set doing different things...and as for shoestringing or stringlining, dupes won't prevent it. One must be careful with the fence up while going around a curve; too much db from the remotes can mess things up a bit. I was called out to a cold & wet late-night derailment at Crooks in 1999 that was a result of the aforementioned situation. I hope these ramblings are a tad bit clearer than your average mud puddle!

[broncoman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Dave: No, its a helper uphill and down. Same principal.

The reason you heard the helper in dynamic braking at Auburn, and not the lead units, would have to do with the profile of the track at that point, the speed limit, etc. Donner is not a continuous grade; there are flat spots, grade variations, and one actual descent in the middle of the eastward climb, from Colfax to the bridge that crosses over I-80 just east of there (Long Ravine?).

What I think you heard them say was "stringlining," not "shoestringing." Stringlining is the tendency of a train being pulled around a curve to want to cut the corner. Take a string, lay it on the carpet in a curve, and pull on one end -- same thing.

Take a look at the autorack trains you see and note if they're mostly empties or mostly loads. That will make a difference in whether they need a helper.

Thanks for the correction. It looked right when I typed it but not when I red it. It is so hard to tell profile from the points that you are able to spot at and I haven't been able to take AMTRAK to reno yet. The autoracks are mostly empty eastbound and full going westbound I am assuming towards Benicia.

Thanks for the information Mark!