UP derailed a train about an hour east of me in Sibley, Iowa on Sunday. The news said that a car full of liquid asphalt had caught fire, causing some evacuations. It's reported that they firemen were letting all the liquid asphalt burn itself out. That was causing a huge plume of black smoke. Is liquid asphalt by train really a thing? Side note: a goofball I work with heard about it over lunch on Monday. He went outside expecting to see a big plume of smoke in the eastern sky, 60 miles away. He just wouldn't accept the concept of curvature of the earth.
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Murphy Siding Is liquid asphalt by train really a thing?
Absolutely. There's a large facility near Cortland, NY that's served by the Susquehanna. Much of the asphalt used in central NY probably comes through there. It's here: N 42 35' 29" W 76 9' 9"
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy Siding Side note: a goofball I work with heard about it over lunch on Monday. He went outside expecting to see a big plume of smoke in the eastern sky, 60 miles away. He just wouldn't accept the concept of curvature of the earth.
And I guess he votes to?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Liquid asphalt is about the consistency of tar, thicker than heavy fuel oil. Fairly difficult to ignite compared to lighter fuel oils, but obviously not impossible.
In Canada it is not placarded as a dangerous good.
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SD70DudeLiquid asphalt is about the consistency of tar, thicker than heavy fuel oil.
If I remember correctly, we were discussing heating coils in cars not long ago.
SD70Dude Liquid asphalt is about the consistency of tar, thicker than heavy fuel oil. Fairly difficult to ignite compared to lighter fuel oils, but obviously not impossible. In Canada it is not placarded as a dangerous good.
tree68SD70Dude Liquid asphalt is about the consistency of tar, thicker than heavy fuel oil. If I remember correctly, we were discussing heating coils in cars not long ago.
There is a tank farm just across the track (the one Amtrak 27/28 uses) from the Amtrak station in Vancouver, WA. Whenever I have visited the station, about half of the time there is a tank car on the stub track with a steam hose attached and hissing away to get the asphalt out of the car.
Murphy Siding SD70Dude Liquid asphalt is about the consistency of tar, thicker than heavy fuel oil. Fairly difficult to ignite compared to lighter fuel oils, but obviously not impossible. In Canada it is not placarded as a dangerous good. Is it thin enough that it flows out of the tanl car when someone turns the spigot?
Is it thin enough that it flows out of the tanl car when someone turns the spigot?
I've never tried, but I suspect not at room temperature.
Lots of tank cars have steam coils to heat and thin the product before attempting to unload it. Glue, sulphur and corn syrup also come to mind, and I'm sure there are many, many more.
It's placarded "hot" but there are no placement restrictions on it, loaded or empty.
There's a receiver at Tama IA that gets it. They attach steam lines to heat it up to empty the tank cars.
Jeff
Is liquid asphalt by train really a thing?
Sure is and has been for decades. SD70Dude pointed out its viscosity. It has to be heated around 250-300F to liquify.
SD60MAC9500 Murphy Siding Is liquid asphalt by train really a thing? Sure is and has been for decades. SD70Dude pointed out its viscosity. It has to be heated around 250-300F to liquify.
It can also have a 9 placarded which is miscellaneous products.
Murphy Sidingif you have to heat it up a bit to get it to flow out of the car, it's not liquid asphalt. It's just asphalt.
If you are a little sleepy this morning here is how the pitch behaves when not steam-heated, shown in a way that speeds it (and you) up:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BZvsrOciU_Q
Murphy Siding SD60MAC9500 Murphy Siding Is liquid asphalt by train really a thing? Sure is and has been for decades. SD70Dude pointed out its viscosity. It has to be heated around 250-300F to liquify. I don't want to sound like euclid here, splitting hairs and dissecting semantics, but... if you have to heat it up a bit to get it to flow out of the car, it's not liquid asphalt. It's just asphalt.
I don't want to sound like euclid here, splitting hairs and dissecting semantics, but... if you have to heat it up a bit to get it to flow out of the car, it's not liquid asphalt. It's just asphalt.
I never dissect semantics. Usually there is nothing there to dissect.
EuclidI never dissect semantics. Usually there is nothing there to dissect.
Tank cars for hot asphalt service are insulated fairly well and come equipped with steam coils. From the time the asphalt is loaded at the refinery at approx. 270-400F you're looking at about a heat loss of 15-20 degrees in transit. If the temp is lower than 270F in the tank car steam can be hooked up to reduce the viscosity for easier pumping.
Murphy Siding... splitting hairs and dissecting semantics, but... if you have to heat it up a bit to get it to flow out of the car, it's not liquid asphalt. It's just asphalt.
At the risk of splitting hairs... even if the asphalt got so stiff that you could not get it to flow, its physical state would still be a liquid. Perhaps the qualifier "liquid" is added to distinguish the binder, from the mixture of liquid asphalt and aggregrate to form "asphalt", as a type of road.
MidlandMikeAt the risk of splitting hairs... even if the asphalt got so stiff that you could not get it to flow, its physical state would still be a liquid. Perhaps the qualifier "liquid" is added to distinguish the binder, from the mixture of liquid asphalt and aggregrate to form "asphalt", as a type of road.
During the year I spent on a South Pacific island that was used as a military base during WWII, I learned that the roads on the atoll were paved with bunker oil, which has to be heated to be useful as fuel.
Side note: a goofball I work with heard about it over lunch on Monday. He went outside expecting to see a big plume of smoke in the eastern sky, 60 miles away. He just wouldn't accept the concept of curvature of the earth.
NittanyLionIt isn't that out there. A sufficiently large fire can be seen from such distances.
True, that. I've seen the header from fires at a significant distance - 40+ miles.
OTOH, it doesn't take much wind to lay the smoke down - I've gone to fires that one would think would have been visible from a good distance where you had to almost be on the scene to see the smoke.
tree68 NittanyLion It isn't that out there. A sufficiently large fire can be seen from such distances. True, that. I've seen the header from fires at a significant distance - 40+ miles. OTOH, it doesn't take much wind to lay the smoke down - I've gone to fires that one would think would have been visible from a good distance where you had to almost be on the scene to see the smoke.
NittanyLion It isn't that out there. A sufficiently large fire can be seen from such distances.
And I have been several hundred miles from wild fires and smelled the smoke and seen the haze of the smoke. Then the wind changes direction and it all goes away.
BaltACDAnd I have been several hundred miles from wild fires and smelled the smoke and seen the haze of the smoke. Then the wind changes direction and it all goes away.
A few years ago, the smoke from wildfires in northern Quebec was carried by the wind into northern and central New York. Made for a weird looking sky, and there were a few "smoke in the area" calls in our county.
tree68 BaltACD And I have been several hundred miles from wild fires and smelled the smoke and seen the haze of the smoke. Then the wind changes direction and it all goes away. A few years ago, the smoke from wildfires in northern Quebec was carried by the wind into northern and central New York. Made for a weird looking sky, and there were a few "smoke in the area" calls in our county.
BaltACD And I have been several hundred miles from wild fires and smelled the smoke and seen the haze of the smoke. Then the wind changes direction and it all goes away.
I have to disagree with you on this one, in part.
Some grades are indeed placarded with HOT 3257 placards. We have many asphalt loads here that are dangerous goods with the UN 3257 on the waybill.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
There are also tank cars that apparently use electricity to heat the commodity. One end of the car has about five or six burners on it, warming up the commodity, and connected to a large box somewhere on the carbody (often above the tank). I'm not sure that this is always for asphalt, or how specialized the commodity is, but if you see one you won't forget it. Koppers Company used to have a lot of them. It isn't easy to find pictures that show this to advantage, but RailroadPictureArchives has a shot of TILX 220310 that might be a little hlpful.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
traisessive1 SD70Dude Liquid asphalt is about the consistency of tar, thicker than heavy fuel oil. Fairly difficult to ignite compared to lighter fuel oils, but obviously not impossible. In Canada it is not placarded as a dangerous good. I have to disagree with you on this one, in part. Some grades are indeed placarded with HOT 3257 placards. We have many asphalt loads here that are dangerous goods with the UN 3257 on the waybill.
Yeah you're right, I had forgotten about those. Guess I was just thinking of the non-placarded stuff we more commonly switch around here.
Some grades of heavy fuel oil are not placarded as dangerous either. Only the "HOT" placard (which might be painted on) and a 'environmentally sensitive' note on the journal, but you can still put it next to a locomotive or a load prone to shift.
It's always seemed strange to me that any oil product would not be labelled as a dangerous good.
Turns out that the 3257 number only marks any liquid that is shipped above 100°C, 3256 and 3258 are for loads above 60°C and 240°C respectively. So the stuff I see must not be heated nearly as much, perhaps that means it is thinner (and likely more flammable) than the placarded stuff!
I wonder how long it stays hot for after being loaded in the tank car?
Mix in aggregate with hot asphalt and you can pave roads with the resulting compound. Under the proper sustained situation the roadway paved with asphalt & aggregate CAN catch on fire.
For those who many not have looked up UN 3257:
tree68 MidlandMike At the risk of splitting hairs... even if the asphalt got so stiff that you could not get it to flow, its physical state would still be a liquid. Perhaps the qualifier "liquid" is added to distinguish the binder, from the mixture of liquid asphalt and aggregrate to form "asphalt", as a type of road. During the year I spent on a South Pacific island that was used as a military base during WWII, I learned that the roads on the atoll were paved with bunker oil, which has to be heated to be useful as fuel.
MidlandMike At the risk of splitting hairs... even if the asphalt got so stiff that you could not get it to flow, its physical state would still be a liquid. Perhaps the qualifier "liquid" is added to distinguish the binder, from the mixture of liquid asphalt and aggregrate to form "asphalt", as a type of road.
I took a cruise on the Delta Queen and before we arrived in Cincinnati, it stopped near North Bend Ohio (near the mouth of the Miami River) to refuel with Bunker C oil for the boilers. The oil was delivered by hoses that were steam heated. Didn't some locomotives use thick oil that required heating to flow?
Tender oil tanks normally contain steam pipes. They are not always needed, if you are burning a lighter grade like diesel or used motor oil in warm weather the engine may fire just fine without the fuel being preheated, the results of course will vary depending on the engine, fuel grade and ambient temperature.
Heavy fuel oil can solidify in cold weather. The magazine had a story a few years ago about lighting up a cold engine on a Rayonier logging railway during winter in the Pacific northwest, it seemed to be quite the task.
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