daveklepper 1971 - 1979: Was the Post Road actually out-of-service while there was no Boston - Albany passenger service?
1971 - 1979: Was the Post Road actually out-of-service while there was no Boston - Albany passenger service?
PC removed the rail, and was not put back in until after ConRail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_Road_Branch
Much of what is now Iowa Interstate sat dormant without rail service for about 2 years. The ex-RI between Bureau and Silvis IL, between Iowa City and Newton IA and between Dexter and Council Bluffs IA had no service. Even Iowa City for a year only had service provided by the CRANDIC out of Cedar Rapids. It was about a year before service was restored to IC from Wilton IA.
The Iowa RR first started on the west end and within a few months reopened service to the east to Bureau. CNW gave up the Dexter to Newton segment to the IRRC, but the MILW stayed on the Davenport to Iowa City segment.
Within a couple of years, the IAIS displaced IRRC and MILW on the route.
Jeff
Have to stand up for New Jersey here. NJT reactivated Philly to Atlantic City in 1986 over PRS? rails and reactivated Camden to Trenton passenger service over semi-abandoned Conrail trackage in 2002. Great transportation policy in the Garden State. Still waiting for rebuilding of the Camden-Pemberton Penn Central line (partially in service as the Hainesport Industrial Track) and then the Blue Comet and Cape May lines.
Did anyone mention the 1979 restoration of the "Post Road" between Rensselaer, NY and the former B&A main line, to accommodate Amtrak's "Lake Shore Limited"?
My involvement in long-haul electric and fiber-optic lines had Ad Valorem taxes assesed at the county level.
BaltACD Plus the fact that, given the opportunity, some local juridictions would tax at ridiculous rates. If the state sets the rates, at least they're consistant, ditto for feds... diningcar Railroad property is not locally assessed. Locals do not have the expertise. States determine the total value of a RR and then assign allocations to each local. Suspect each state has their own methods of setting property tax rates on every taxable parcel within their state using both local and state resources.
Plus the fact that, given the opportunity, some local juridictions would tax at ridiculous rates. If the state sets the rates, at least they're consistant, ditto for feds...
diningcar Railroad property is not locally assessed. Locals do not have the expertise. States determine the total value of a RR and then assign allocations to each local.
Suspect each state has their own methods of setting property tax rates on every taxable parcel within their state using both local and state resources.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
diningcarRailroad property is not locally assessed. Locals do not have the expertise. States determine the total value of a RR and then assign allocations to each local.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Railroad property is not locally assessed. Locals do not have the expertise. States determine the total value of a RR and then assign allocations to each local.
Fred M CainBut if we look at a state budget as a whole that collects money from all different sources, including railroad property taxes, and then look at the outlays, some of which go to the highway mode, then you can almost make a case for that.
Property taxes are levied by local governments. They pay for schools, police, fire, etc., and sometimes local roads. Charging property taxes helps ensure that the land is used for productive use. They can often give tax breaks to uses they consider desirable.
Fred M CainOne thing I’ve wondered about for many years, I have always believed and continue to believe that property taxes play a role in railroad abandonments. But what I wonder is how much of a role. That is a rather difficult thing to measure.
I've always suspected what you are saying to be the case. I mean if you're gonna tax someone, who better than someone who has no choice but to pay it? Seems as though I once saw an article mentioning the enviable position that Indiana was in, relating to anyone aspiring to run a railroad between Chicago and the East coast.
Personally, I doubt that any of the major players ever ended service solely as a tax avoidance strategy. But, once a decision to end service has been made, I have little doubt that on-site improvements were removed expeditiously to reduce tax burden for an asset no longer contributing materially to the work flow.
In either sense, I think that continually portraying the railroads as "victims" serves little practical benefit. We're talking about entities who had little qualm about crushing whoever got in their way, .....(add mixed metaphor of choice here)
Fred M Cain One thing I’ve wondered about for many years, I have always believed and continue to believe that property taxes play a role in railroad abandonments. But what I wonder is how much of a role. That is a rather difficult thing to measure. The method for Taxing railroad properties varies from State to State but is not locally asessed by local Assessors due to the difficulty in educating them. States have their own procedure to evaluate a railroads total properties within the State and then allocated the total taxes collected from the railroad to each taxing entity,ie, County - Parish or whatever. Therefore the railroads probably do not - cannot specifically determine how much of the total taxes paid to each State is applied to a certain segment. Therefore I believe property taxes would have no participation in making the decision to abandon a segment, or to takeup a second or third track. It’s pretty much a demonstrable fact that high taxes discourage investment and if taxes are punitive enough, they can actually ENcourage disinvestment. Are high property taxes part of the reason that there have been so many rail lines abandoned in high-tax states like New York and Michigan? That’s an interesting thought there. In a sense it’s almost as if the government were taxing the railroads to help build the highway system. I know, I know, state and federal governments didn’t really assess a tax on rail properties and funnel that money directly into highways. But if we look at a state budget as a whole that collects money from all different sources, including railroad property taxes, and then look at the outlays, some of which go to the highway mode, then you can almost make a case for that. There are a few foreign countries that have had an aggressive highway building agenda but built those roads in a way that minimized damage to their railway networks. Sadly, that did not happen in the United States or Canada.
Fred M Cainne thing I’ve wondered about for many years, I have always believed and continue to believe that property taxes play a role in railroad abandonments. But what I wonder is how much of a role. That is a rather difficult thing to measure.
tree68I believe you'll find that the Central was mostly four tracks from Albany to Buffalo, and possibly beyond.
I don't recall the year, but the third and fourth tracks were removed by the mid-sixties.
I think, but can't prove, that the four tracks shoehorned up most of the Hudson River Railroad were reduced to two with better transition curvature and tunnel clearance as part of this.
Fred M CainAt the extreme western end of the line, where the Pennsy and NYC used to run parallel next to each other, CR combined the two mainlines using the best of the two. Part of the ex-NYC line was used then further west part of the PRR and the NYC was abandoned. (Or was it actually the other way around?) This could well be in the Tolleston area, I'm not sure. Does anybody know? Now, having said all this, what was abandoned was the eastern end of the line between Pittsburgh and eastern Ohio sometimes known as "The Panhandle Line". I think that really is gone and that's a shame. It would now be kinda hard to establish high-speed or higher speed intercity rail passenger service between Pittsburgh and Columbus, OH. (If that's what they really wanna do.) Columbus was on the St. Louis line but I think both lines used the panhandle route for a distance west of Pittsburgh.
The "Panhandle" seperated from the Chicago line at Pittsburgh. An abandoned gap was created in the Panhandle between P'burg and the Ohio River, but it was shortlined between there and Columbus. The old PRR Chicago mainline I believe is intact thru PA, Ohio and most of Indiana until the gap in the Chicago area previously mentioned.
Back around 2003, tracks were pulled up but fortunately those tracks were replaced about 2018.
The original trackage was Thomas the Tank Engine with the CEO being my son.
Then in 2018 the CEO was our granddaughter (not my son's child). My son when he returned home saw the set up and was quite excited.
Seriously, back in the 90s the PRR diamond over the GTW (now CN) was removed west of Valparaiso, thus the line was dormant. In the late 90s the crossing was restored and NS began running on trackage rights with a new connection built at Hobart. Then the line was restored in Gary. CSX ran a daily Chicago - Buffalo train if memory serves me, as well as a local.
Chicago, Ft. Wayne and Eastern (CFE) now operates the line with NS having trackage rights. CFE has built a pretty good business, with more opportunities around the corner.
ed
Murphy SidingCan you give me the names of a couple small towns in NY that had 4-track lines through them at one time? I'd like to take a Google maps trip to get away from too much reality and seems like it would be interesting.
I believe you'll find that the Central was mostly four tracks from Albany to Buffalo, and possibly beyond. I don't recall the year, but the third and fourth tracks were removed by the mid-sixties.
I did a quick follow from Rome to Jordan - sometimes the freight tracks were separated from the passenger tracks (Utica a good example), and the West Shore enters into the equation as well.
Historic Aerials is a good place for such research.
Murphy SidingOr the Milwaukee Road Pacific Coast Extension.
Or how "Diesels done Steam wrong", or how since the Government spends tax dollars on highways, that means they owe an equal share to passenger rail,...or.....
tree68 Murphy Siding Is adding back a double track back in fairly easy to do, compared to say, trying to revive a long dormant rail line? Would there be any opposition to something like that? Most, if not all, of the ROW for the NYC four-track line through NYS could conceivably be returned to four tracks, not that anyone would want to do so. While there might be some places where it would be troublesome (ie, some stations, signal bridges, bridges that may have been replace with just two tracks, etc), it could be possible. I would opine that in former two-track territory it would be relatively easy. It was done on the former B&O west of Deshler some years ago. I would agree that short of some local opposition due to increased traffic, etc., such construction would be chiefly under the radar.
Murphy Siding Is adding back a double track back in fairly easy to do, compared to say, trying to revive a long dormant rail line? Would there be any opposition to something like that?
Most, if not all, of the ROW for the NYC four-track line through NYS could conceivably be returned to four tracks, not that anyone would want to do so. While there might be some places where it would be troublesome (ie, some stations, signal bridges, bridges that may have been replace with just two tracks, etc), it could be possible.
I would opine that in former two-track territory it would be relatively easy. It was done on the former B&O west of Deshler some years ago.
I would agree that short of some local opposition due to increased traffic, etc., such construction would be chiefly under the radar.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Fred M CainYou know what? As a Nation and a people, I feel like we've lost something precious. It seems like a long time ago, say 70-100 years ago, people were fortunate enough to enjoy a much slower pace of life.
Fred, your entire post is well received. I'm not trying to fault you for having ideals.
I had spent a lifetime having to own the "latest, greatest everything", and then moving back to Podunk about 18 years ago, learned how to appreciate the simple things. Things that I had customarily shuttered out back in the day that I was working so hard toward "progress".
In many ways, I believe our society has it's wires crossed, the priorities that we push seem misguided. But that is a conversation for another venue.
Convicted One Lots of railfans have emotional ties to favored lines, and would love dearly to see their pet memories revived. I believe it is that ambition driving the Saluda grade threads, and the Tennessee pass threads we see here from time to time.... Rotsa Ruck.
Lots of railfans have emotional ties to favored lines, and would love dearly to see their pet memories revived. I believe it is that ambition driving the Saluda grade threads, and the Tennessee pass threads we see here from time to time.... Rotsa Ruck.
Fred M Cain Convicted One But at the same time, there are boatloads of sentimentalism posted here that often read like saccharine Hallmark cards, praying for the revival of whatever passion the particular member cherishes.....which is fine, but I think it's important to distinguish reality from fantasy. Convicted, You know what? As a Nation and a people, I feel like we've lost something precious. It seems like a long time ago, say 70-100 years ago, people were fortunate enough to enjoy a much slower pace of life. We've lost that. That might be where some of the "sentimentlism" is coming from. That's kinda the way I feel. That's the way I feel about Route 66, rural, open-wire telephone lines, and some railroads. It wasn't so much the things that were lost that hurts, it's the slower pace of life. To put a good face on it, many things have improved. Especially in the field of medical science. Racism has improved as well. I know that the news media is going nuts over "systemic racism" and the like, but back in poor Scott Joplin's time, racism WAS systemic and it was terrible. So, that it's, really. The loss of our railways has been sad but it's more than that, really. It was the good things that we lost along with it. It would be swell to have the better medical science and convenience but have kept the slower pace of life but, sadly, some things are just not possible. :(
Convicted One But at the same time, there are boatloads of sentimentalism posted here that often read like saccharine Hallmark cards, praying for the revival of whatever passion the particular member cherishes.....which is fine, but I think it's important to distinguish reality from fantasy.
But at the same time, there are boatloads of sentimentalism posted here that often read like saccharine Hallmark cards, praying for the revival of whatever passion the particular member cherishes.....which is fine, but I think it's important to distinguish reality from fantasy.
Convicted,
You know what? As a Nation and a people, I feel like we've lost something precious. It seems like a long time ago, say 70-100 years ago, people were fortunate enough to enjoy a much slower pace of life. We've lost that. That might be where some of the "sentimentlism" is coming from. That's kinda the way I feel. That's the way I feel about Route 66, rural, open-wire telephone lines, and some railroads. It wasn't so much the things that were lost that hurts, it's the slower pace of life.
To put a good face on it, many things have improved. Especially in the field of medical science. Racism has improved as well. I know that the news media is going nuts over "systemic racism" and the like, but back in poor Scott Joplin's time, racism WAS systemic and it was terrible.
So, that it's, really. The loss of our railways has been sad but it's more than that, really. It was the good things that we lost along with it.
It would be swell to have the better medical science and convenience but have kept the slower pace of life but, sadly, some things are just not possible. :(
Just remember - in another 50 to 70 years the pundits of the age will be commenting on the relaxed and leasurely days of the 2020's and how great they were.
Fred, all that is just great.....hope somthing comes of it.
Afterall, "with just a little taxpayer subsidy, I'm sure a revived Tennessee pass line coud be a winner" (sarcasm)
Convicted One Lots of railfans have emotional ties to favored lines, and would love dearly to see their pet memories revived. I believe it is that ambition driving the Saluda grade threads, and the Tennessee pass threads we see here from time to time.... Rotsa Ruck. I think that any restorations we are likely to see will have to build a compelling business case, before anyone is going to invest in dirt, steel, and perspiration. That is why I submitted the line I suggested. <SNIP>
I think that any restorations we are likely to see will have to build a compelling business case, before anyone is going to invest in dirt, steel, and perspiration. That is why I submitted the line I suggested.
<SNIP>
Plus, restoration of the B&O line did stimulate railfan enthusiasm, so in a sense it was "win-win"...
Murphy SidingIs adding back a double track back in fairly easy to do, compared to say, trying to revive a long dormant rail line? Would there be any opposition to something like that?
Well, as we've previously discussed, the "smart eggs" often put language into the transfer of property to the railroads stipulating that the land conveyed had to be used for the intended purpose, and failure to do so would cause the title to the land to revert back to the previous owner.
So, potentially, a "redoubling" would have one less hurdle to cross than a line that went fully dormant, possibly triggering reversion. (or whatever it's rightly called).
But, at the heart of my original post, is the need to distinguish motive behind any restoration. Business vs emotion.
The recent discussion about UP's lease for the Moffat tunnel expiring in a few years, puts an interesting twist into the discussion pertaining to Tennesse pass. (I was totally unaware of this) Such a variable could definitely make things happen, that normally otherwise wouldn't.
Is adding back a double track back in fairly easy to do, compared to say, trying to revive a long dormant rail line? Would there be any opposition to something like that?
As far as any NIMBYs are concerned, I'm not sure how much or how far they'd object to double-tracking or if they'd even be aware of a double-track project.
What I have seen is sometimes NIMBYs can raise a real stink if they learn that a railroad plans to dramaticlly increase traffic on a certain line or lines. I think there was an issue about this in the Chicago area. In fact, weren't some NIMBYs objecting to the installation of a new siding on CN? So, yeah, that would be part of your answer 'cause that is a form of a double track although only for a short stretch.
One mainline track that I'm aware of that might someday get relaid is the #1 track over Donner Pass. It was ripped out by the SP but the UP has considered re-installing it. They were looking at that a few years ago but decided against it at that time.
If traffic levels increase they have the Feather River Canyon Line at their disposal. But someday the Feather River Line could be downgraded, abandoned or perhaps sold to another railroad. Then later if traffic levels warrant, they could reinstall the second track over Donner Pass. I seem to recall that although the track is gone, it was never "legally" abandoned although perhaps I'm wrong there.
There would be few if any NIMBYs who would object but I'm sure the environmentalists would scream like bloody murder.
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