Interesting to find out how it is done today. I figured it would all be computerized, but have seen Amtrak conductors use a sheet of paper with special info, I have read some of it when talking to them. Scanning tickets is much easier than the old way of collecting them by hand. That is why I was suprised when a River Runner conductor told me they still carry the punch, needed for cash fares, although not much of that today. So I have a notebook I now carry when I ride Amtrak and been collecting punch marks from the different conductors on trains I ride, they sign it too with their name, date and train #. Everyone has been very nice about it, some do not have the punch on them , but most have it. So some things change with the times and some do not. Never saw any orders hooped up because Frisco yard where Dad worked had an office so the crews would get their orders while they waited for trains to be made up. They had a special area to wait in but a lot of interaction with the office workers like Dad. The super would just close his door and as long as the work was done, he did not care.
jeffhergert SFbrkmn PTC now allows form A speed restrictions to be issued and voided w/the information shown on the engineer and conductor screen in the operating cab. Only the engineer has access to control the screen. The system also allows crossing warning notifications to be issued and voided as well. Track warrants are also being phased in for this as. The conductor still is required to copy on the correct paper form of what is being displayed to the train on the screen in front of him We have the track warrant capability now. You can even release a track warrant through PTC. You can even release the active track warrant that protects your train, as a couple of crews have found out. Why PTC lets you release your protection when it knows you are still within the limits is beyond me. At the very least is should warn that you are about to do so and ask for confirmation, like it does for other situations. Track authorities can also now be issued and released using the railroad supplied electronic device I mentioned in another thread. Jeff
SFbrkmn PTC now allows form A speed restrictions to be issued and voided w/the information shown on the engineer and conductor screen in the operating cab. Only the engineer has access to control the screen. The system also allows crossing warning notifications to be issued and voided as well. Track warrants are also being phased in for this as. The conductor still is required to copy on the correct paper form of what is being displayed to the train on the screen in front of him
We have the track warrant capability now. You can even release a track warrant through PTC. You can even release the active track warrant that protects your train, as a couple of crews have found out.
Why PTC lets you release your protection when it knows you are still within the limits is beyond me. At the very least is should warn that you are about to do so and ask for confirmation, like it does for other situations.
Track authorities can also now be issued and released using the railroad supplied electronic device I mentioned in another thread.
Jeff
It is my understanding that PTC, while installed on the track segments that the mandate requires, is still being operated in 'real world test' mode and has not gotten the status of 'Official' where in it is believed all the bug and system quirks have been solved.
Considering the complexity of the systems and the differing physical characteristics of the territories where it has been installed - I don't know that it will ever get to the point of being bug free without quirks.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
SFbrkmnPTC now allows form A speed restrictions to be issued and voided w/the information shown on the engineer and conductor screen in the operating cab. Only the engineer has access to control the screen. The system also allows crossing warning notifications to be issued and voided as well. Track warrants are also being phased in for this as. The conductor still is required to copy on the correct paper form of what is being displayed to the train on the screen in front of him
timz Guess crews had always been allowed to copy their own orders by phone, if no other way to get the train out of a siding? Was the same true for radio, as soon as it appeared?
Guess crews had always been allowed to copy their own orders by phone, if no other way to get the train out of a siding? Was the same true for radio, as soon as it appeared?
They could copy their own orders under certain situations.
A National Mediation Board award provided that Dispatchers were not permitted to issue, nor train crews required to copy orders, except in emergencies. Which was pretty liberal in defining what constituted an emergency.
A train at a blind siding could copy their own orders.
If a crew needed orders at a station where it was closed for the day, the assigned operator was supposed to be called. If he/she wasn't, they could still put in a time slip for not being called.
I think it was the BofLE that first signed an agreement allowing engineers to copy their own orders direct from the dispatcher. Shortly afterwards track warrants and DTC appeared. I'm sure the UTU soon followed suit, willingly or not.
In the RI's Voice Control operation I mentioned earlier, the dispatcher did not issue instructions direct to the train. They were issued through the Kansas City Relay Operator because of the labor agreements in force.
Erik_MagWonder if your Marantz receiver was the original Marantz.
No, nothing quite that sexy. But it is pre-Philips. This one literally sat in a spare bedroom for 30 years before I liberated it at an estate sale. Sounds great as is, but I'd probably have to get it re-capped to get top dollar out of it,..not that I'd ever dream of parting with it.
Erik_MagThe "motor-generators" were probably dynamotors, where the armature had commutators at each end, one for the low voltage and the other for the high voltage.
Undoubtedly true. I believe I've heard the term, it just didn't come to mind.
Aside from standing next to a patrol car with a dynamotor in it, you could hear it on a receiver when one user keyed up over another. There was a very distinctive whine spooling up in the heterodyne (the noise you hear when two transmitters key up at the same time).
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 The mobiles of the day included "motor-generators" which served to provide the higher voltages needed for the tubes. The radios were the size of a small suitcase, with a remote head.
The mobiles of the day included "motor-generators" which served to provide the higher voltages needed for the tubes. The radios were the size of a small suitcase, with a remote head.
The "motor-generators" were probably dynamotors, where the armature had commutators at each end, one for the low voltage and the other for the high voltage. The two sets of windings shared the slots in the armature and used the same field. Dynamotors are lighter and typically more efficient than a true motor-generator, but the downside is that there is a fixed ratio between low and high voltages.
I had a late 1960's HF boat radio from a friend's dad that I was contemplating to convert to 160M. The high voltage for the final amplifier tubes was generated by a transistor multivibrator combined with a transformer and HV rectifiers.
By the early 1970's, transistor technology allowed for signficant power to be generated at VHF. Nowadays, there is a shoft to replace the magnetrons in microwave ovens with GaN transistors.
Convicted One:
Wonder if your Marantz receiver was the original Marantz or a Superscope Marantz? FWIW, I did get a chance to meet Saul Marantz in 1979.
I've heard stories of crews throwing radios into the river because they thought that their use would eliminate jobs.
tree68 Ulrich Why wouldn't they have used radios back in the 50s through the 70s? I'm pretty sure that "radio equipped" was standard by the mid 50s. My experience with radios in the 1960's was not with railroads, but with police agencies. The mobiles of the day included "motor-generators" which served to provide the higher voltages needed for the tubes. The radios were the size of a small suitcase, with a remote head. In the middle 1960's there became available portable (handheld) radios, sometimes called "bricks" because they were large and heavy. The police department in the village where I lived had just a few radios - just the duty officer(s) would have one. In fact, for several years, the local amateur radio club assisted the police department at Halloween by providing rides for officers so they could boost the number of officers on the roads. The use of CB radios by the crews speaks to the crews recognizing the value of such communications. These days a professional quality handheld can be had for $400. The locomotive radios ("clean cab") are around $3,000, IIRC. Haven't priced them recently. A mere pittance in a million dollar locomotive.
Ulrich Why wouldn't they have used radios back in the 50s through the 70s? I'm pretty sure that "radio equipped" was standard by the mid 50s.
Why wouldn't they have used radios back in the 50s through the 70s? I'm pretty sure that "radio equipped" was standard by the mid 50s.
My experience with radios in the 1960's was not with railroads, but with police agencies.
In the middle 1960's there became available portable (handheld) radios, sometimes called "bricks" because they were large and heavy. The police department in the village where I lived had just a few radios - just the duty officer(s) would have one.
In fact, for several years, the local amateur radio club assisted the police department at Halloween by providing rides for officers so they could boost the number of officers on the roads.
The use of CB radios by the crews speaks to the crews recognizing the value of such communications.
These days a professional quality handheld can be had for $400. The locomotive radios ("clean cab") are around $3,000, IIRC. Haven't priced them recently. A mere pittance in a million dollar locomotive.
Look no further than the TV series Adam 12 that is broadcast M-F at 5 PM Eastern on MeTV view the radios in the late 60's & early 70's. The police car is equipped, however, the officers have to resort to public telephones when they are away from easy access distance to their vehicle.
Just wondering out loud, as it pertains to the question of slow adoption, I wonder if there was a degree of "fail safe" mentality involved, (favoring the old ways) through knowing that the guy throwing the switch and the guy operating the locomotive were literally on the same page?
The Erie started with government-surplus radios, specifically WW2 "Walkie-Talkies," which were plenty rugged. Mind you, these weren't the walkie-talkies we're familiar with now, the WW2 version was actually a backpack radio, the hand-held radio was called a "Handy-Talkie" at the time.
The Erie primarily used the radios for communications between the caboose and the head end. Crews liked it once they got used to it, in fact they got to the point where many said "We don't know how we got along without them!"
UlrichWhy wouldn't they have used radios back in the 50s through the 70s? I'm pretty sure that "radio equipped" was standard by the mid 50s.
I think that we all have seen the Erie locomotives and cabooses with their lightning bolt logos reading "radio equipped", but something just tells me that the constant vibration would not bode well for tube technology, and there was likely a migration period as solid state became the defacto standard we all enjoy today. Industrial grade electronics didn't become "commodity inexpensive" until the 1980s as I recall.
I've got an old Marantz receiver from that period, they were not ($850) cheap back then, and the model I have easily commands $2,800-$3,000 even today.
It was relatively common for railroads to place phone boxes at certain junctions so that crews could call the dispatcher to get permissions. I believe in many cases, these sorts of arrangements replaced operators at those locations.
Not all carriers were 'radio equipped' and even for those that were the equipment was bulky and not reliable.
On the B&O up through the '70's the only radios were employee owned and operated Citizen Band radios used for end to end communications.
Radios, even today, have acknowledged 'dead spots' where communications is impossible. People who use cell phones while mobile over certain routes do encounter certain dead zones, even where cell towers are in a near proximity.
Radios weren't as reliable. Coverage wasn't as extensive, there still are dead spots in some areas. By the 1970s coverage was better. Either by base stations at various locations the dispatcher could dial up or by the use if repeaters.
Some railroads started issuing train orders by radio to trains. Some started using experimental forms of verbal authority that eventually evolved to track warrants or Direct Traffic Control methods. The Rock Island dispatched the St Louis to Kansas City line by "Voice Control" starting in 1974. It was a cross between Track Warrants and DTC, without the TW form or the DTC fixed blocks.
Authorities to occupy the main track can be sent by printer, fax, radio, or PTC. This depends on the specific railroad, using a printer or fax at times have fallen out of favor with some railroads for track authorities.
Track bulletins or their equivalent General Bulletin Orders also can be sent the same way. When going on duty, initially the track condition paperwork is received by printer or fax. Updates are sent by radio or through PTC.
All track authorities and track conditions received via PTC are to be written down then acknowledged. Some need to be repeated, some just need the authority number confirmed. It's still an evolving process using PTC.
Timetable and Train Orders as a method of operation no longer exists on Class 1 carriers. They all operate on some form of Centrailzed Traffic Control or one of two systems for unsignalled territory - Direct Traffic Control or Track Warrants. DTC has specific blocks that are defined in the ETT. Track Warrants are variable and can be issued from station to station or Milepost to Milepost.
On CSX when crews come on duty they are issued a numbered Train Bulletin that among other things contains the Train Identity, Names of the Crew and whatever Train Messages are active on the subdivision(s) the train will be operating over to the destination of the crew's run. The Train Bulletin is delivered at the crew room on a designated printer or Fax machine. Train messages include Slow Orders, Work Limits and employee contact for the work and any other messages that may affect the crews operating on the subdivision(s). MofW personnel must input the data for Work Limits at least 14 hours prior to the effective time for the work. If the crew picks up the Train Bulletin and it is OVER 4 hours from the time it was created they are to contact the Dispatcher who will authorize them to destroy the 'old' bulletin and a new one will be sent. When getting any train bulletin the crew must contact the Dispatcher so that the Dispatcher can electronically attach the identity of the Train Bulletin that the crew will be operating their train on.
Trains operating in CTC territory use Signal Indication as their authority to move. In Dark Territory the Dispatcher will radio specific authority in the prescribed form that must be copied by the crew in the field and the relevant data must be repeated back to the Dispatcher who will then give the crew a 'OK' time and initials when the authority has been repeated CORRECTLY. Once the crew has the OK'd authority they can move - the authority can be specified in one or both directions.
Restrictive train messages are transmitted from the Dispatcher by radio. If the initial point of the restriction is within 5 miles of the train's location - the train must be stopped before a crew member copies and repeats the train message correctly to the Dispatcher for his OK. Trains over 5 miles from the point of restriction can have a employee, THAT IS NOT OPERATING THE LOCOMOTIVE, copy and repeat the train message.
Amtrak and other passenger organizations, that normally operate with only a Engineer on the locomotive are handled in one of two ways - The Engineer copies the train message while stopped at a station stop, or the Conductor navigates from the passenger cars to the locomotive cab and then copies and repeats the train message from the cab of the locomotive while the train is on the move.
mudchicken By printers in the terminals also ...... Balt? (Track Warrants and train authorizations (CTC where you run on signal authorization) in my world. Train orders & timetable authority, per se - are kind of a thing of the past/obsolete
By printers in the terminals also ...... Balt? (Track Warrants and train authorizations (CTC where you run on signal authorization) in my world.
Train orders & timetable authority, per se - are kind of a thing of the past/obsolete
I see.. nolonger used. Possibly communication via email into the cab..
By radio from the dispatcher.
In the old days.. (well, the 1970s weren't that long ago) orders were hooped up to the crew. But if hooping is gone and crews aren't allowed to use their phones, how are orders now conveyed to crews?
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