What's with this track?

[greyhounds]

I hope this works.

This is a photo of Russian diplomats escaping from North Korea using a railway push cart.

The track has four rails.  I know Russia uses a 5' gauge while the Koreas and China use 4' 8 1/2".  I've always understood that it's impossible to operate 5' and standard gauge on the same track, as can be done with meter gauge and standard guage.  There's supposidly just not enough space between 5' and standard gauge to use a 3rd rail.

There's a break in gauge at the Russia-N. Korea border.  Does this track handle that?  If so, how so?

I hope the photo works.

[mudchicken]

Really short toe tie plates. The base of rail dimension will not allow 3-rail operation so you have a very long gauntlet operation on what I suspect is slightly longer ties for the staggered arrangement.

Significance of the stringline on both sides of the track ?

[BaltACD]

greyhounds

I hope this works.

This is a photo of Russian diplomats escaping from North Korea using a railway push cart.

...

There's a break in gauge at the Russia-N. Korea border.  Does this track handle that?  If so, how so?

I hope the photo works.

All of which begs the question of why Russian Diplomats need to 'escape' N. Korea?

[Flintlock76]

BaltACD

All of which begs the question of why Russian Diplomats need to 'escape' N. Korea?

You're not kidding, that's downright strange.

Time to use "The Google Machine" to try and find what Paul Harvey used to call "The rest of the story."

Found something.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/02/26/russian-diplomats-exit-north-korea-handcar-intl-hnk-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/around-the-world/

[BaltACD]

Flintlock76

 

BaltACD

All of which begs the question of why Russian Diplomats need to 'escape' N. Korea? 

You're not kidding, that's downright strange.

Time to use "The Google Machine" to try and find what Paul Harvey used to call "The rest of the story."

Found something.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2021/02/26/russian-diplomats-exit-north-korea-handcar-intl-hnk-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/around-the-world/

Thought N.Korea only had borders with China and S.Korea - learned something.

[Murphy Siding]

Does the standard gauge have to be inside the 5' gauge? 

[York1]

In the picture, what looks like a stringline looks to me like a temporary electric fence for cattle.  We have these all over the place out here.  These can be put up or taken down in minutes, but they are very effective.

That's just a guess.

[Flintlock76]

BaltACD

Thought N.Korea only had borders with China and S.Korea - learned something.

Me too.  There's a very  thin sliver of a border with Russia in North Korea's northeast corner.  Vladivostok's not far from it.

[Convicted One]

Murphy Siding

Does the standard gauge have to be inside the 5' gauge?

 

Looks like they are overlapped side by side:  A-B - - A-B  to me

 

Hope they were quarantined after crossing the border.

[rixflix]

 Let's see,

4ft 8-1/2in (1435mm) "standard gauge" in U.S., N.Korea and most of the world.

5ft (actually 4ft 11-27/32in or 1520mm) "russian gauge". 

Three rail dual gauge with one rail shared is possible only where the gauge difference is enough to accomodate a flangeway and/or tie plates. Like this:             0           0    0                                                                                                     I            I     I                                                                                                     A           B    C                                                                                                     With space for the above between B and C. Since the difference between 1435mm and 1520mm is barely enough to accomodate a rail's head, dual gauge would need four rails like this:                                                                                                0   0          0         0                                                                                            I    I          I          I                                                                                              A   B          C         D                                                                                            With A and C for the 1435mm and B and D for the 1520mm.

Now back to the Khasan (Russia) to Tumangang (N.Korea) Friendship Bridge, where Google Earth helps to a certain degree. Rolling stock, but not locomotives are exchanged by lifting the cars and swapping their trucks/bogies. There don't appear to be facilities for this on the Russian side. In N.Korea you'll see an area with a pair of movable gantries straddling one through track and several others with lines of stored trucks. I'm not sure how, with  a car lifted, the trucks are moved between it and storage or the opposite. The track arrangement doesn't seem to support this and the overall scheme looks inefficient.

I guess we ought to look at how these things are done between Russia, Latvia, Estonia, et al and western Europe.

Anyway, the diplomats move was to circumvent the strict North Korean covid-19 lockdown. You'd be free to leave but not to come back.

Rick 

Oh rats! I wanted to keep the 0's (wheels), I's (rails) and ABCD's (identifiers) in columns but couldn't figure out how in this format.

Still Rick                                                                                           

 

                                                                                                         

 

 

  

 

[SD60MAC9500]

 

MC is correct on guantlet track. Russian Railways provides a short passenger hop from the Russian town of Khasan across the Tumen River to the DPRK city of Tumangan across the Friendship bridge. Which is a dual gauge bridge. There is some freight that gets transhipped across the borders by rail.

 

[MMLDelete]

My understanding is that gauntlet sections are used because of a ROW, or bridge, that's too narrow for two tracks side by side. Those tracks could be the same gauge or not; my guess is that same gauge is/was more common than different.

My first reaction to the photo was that it's gauntlet; however, there appears to be plenty of room for side by side tracks; so there is no need, at least in the spot we see. Maybe there is a constriction elsewhere nearby?

I can't tell if the two tracks are the same gauge or not. What do you guys think?

I suppose property rights abutting the ROW could necessitate the gauntlet, but I'm thinking that would be overridden by the government in that part of the world.

Is saving on the expense of ties maybe a factor? One size fits all! 

What I don't get about gauntlet track is this. Say there's no gauge difference, and we have a narrow bridge. Wouldn't it be simpler to use a pair of switches, and just have single-track across the bridge?

I can see how the gauntlet is mechanically simpler; no switches to throw. But it damn sure needs to be signaled. So it's not like it needs no attention!

[BaltACD]

Lithonia Operator

My understanding is that gauntlet sections are used because of a ROW, or bridge, that's too narrow for two tracks side by side. Those tracks could be the same gauge or not; my guess is that same gauge is/was more common than different.

My first reaction to the photo was that it's gauntlet; however, there appears to be plenty of room for side by side tracks; so there is no need, at least in the spot we see. Maybe there is a constriction elsewhere nearby?

I can't tell if the two tracks are the same gauge or not. What do you guys think?

I suppose property rights abutting the ROW could necessitate the gauntlet, but I'm thinking that would be overridden by the government in that part of the world.

Is saving on the expense of ties maybe a factor? One size fits all! 

What I don't get about gauntlet track is this. Say there's no gauge difference, and we have a narrow bridge. Wouldn't it be simpler to use a pair of switches, and just have single-track across the bridge?

I can see how the gauntlet is mechanically simpler; no switches to throw. But it damn sure needs to be signaled. So it's not like it needs no attention!

North Korea and Russia have different gauges.  NK is standad gauge and Russia is 5 foot gauge.

The interesting thing from a operating standpoint - who controls access to the gauntlet?

[Valleyline]

Gauntlet tracks are often used to keep occasional wide freight loads away from high level passenger platforms located where there is insufficient room for a separate passing siding.

[Convicted One]

rixflix

Oh rats! I wanted to keep the 0's (wheels), I's (rails) and ABCD's (identifiers) in columns but couldn't figure out how in this format. Still Rick

 

Here, I managed to keep the 1's and 0's lined up:

 

[Overmod]

Lithonia Operator

What I don't get about gauntlet track is this. Say there's no gauge difference, and we have a narrow bridge. Wouldn't it be simpler to use a pair of switches, and just have single-track across the bridge?

Then you have twice the rail wear, still need guardrails in the gauge the length of the bridge... and most importantly have switch points near the end of the bridge that need to be moved, can direct the train to an improper track when leaving the bridge, and with points that can be picked, damaged, or move under a train.

Gantlet track has only a couple of frogs at the points the rails cross.  These can easily be self-guarding or have a short piece of guard rail adjacent so are safe even if very long high-speed frogs are used, and can be flange-bearing in modern practice for low shock.

[SD70Dude]

Lithonia Operator

What I don't get about gauntlet track is this. Say there's no gauge difference, and we have a narrow bridge. Wouldn't it be simpler to use a pair of switches, and just have single-track across the bridge?

Sometimes you don't want the two tracks to interconnect.

Edmonton used to have a bridge where a streetcar line, freight railway and public road all shared a single lane bridge in this manner.

[diningcar]

I recall a location in OK where the MKT and Santa Fe had lines approaching a fairly large river and then diverging beyond the river. They elected to build one bridge and each RR had its own tracks upon the bridge with a gauntlet track arrangement to cross the river. A unique arrangement that saved a second bridge. 

[greyhounds]

rixflix

I guess we ought to look at how these things are done between Russia, Latvia, Estonia, et al and western Europe. Anyway, the diplomats move was to circumvent the strict North Korean covid-19 lockdown. You'd be free to leave but not to come back.

The railways of Latvia, Estonia, The Ukraine, etc. are all built to the Russian 5’ gauge.

 

The diplomats weren’t “Free to Leave.”  If they were free to leave why would they be sneaking out like this?  I’ll opine that some serious bribes were paid to North Koreans who may have already been shot.

[MMLDelete]

How much more gauge difference would be needed to be able to get by with three rails?

[cx500]

Lithonia Operator

How much more gauge difference would be needed to be able to get by with three rails?

 

 

It will depend to a certain extent on the size of rail.  It is the base dimension that will control, since obviously they cannot overlap, and then you also have to allow more room for the fastenings, such as spikes or Pandrol clips.  Possibly about 8" difference might be a bare minimum with spikes, and greater for clips.

[MMLDelete]

Thanks, cx500.

[DSchmitt]

Russian soldiers patrol by the Druzhby Bridge linking Russia and North Korea in January 2003.  From Business Insider April 24, 2019

[mudchicken]

Sometimes you don't wan't trains stopping if at all possible (to open and close the switches)

 

and sometimes the brakie and the conductor don't wanna get their widdle boots dirty or get out of the cab..