I've been reading the NORAC rule book.
One rule applies to trains that have gone into emergency and have stopped. It states that flag protection must be deployed in each direction on adjacent tracks (and, I assume, on the train's own track), including tracks of any foreign road.
How is this possible with a 2-man crew? Do they leave the train unattended, and the engineer does the forward flagging?
Let's say this is a 4-track main. How are two guys going to do all this protecting? Maybe there are even converging tracks. Or the dead train is blocking a diamond crossing. I suppose we could be talking 6-8 tracks total. Instead of protection in two directions, couldn't we be talking four directions?
Could someone explain how this would work in the real world?
Another issue: distance. Say it's a 1.5 mile long train. If the rear needs a mile of protection, then the conductor must walk 2.5 miles, possibly on sloped loose ballast the whole way. This might take close to an hour. So the delay in getting protection is significant, and seriously worse than if there had been a caboose.
How does this actually unfold, typically? I didn't think trains were supposed to be left unattended, so that rule just goes out the window?
If it's four tracks, do the flaggers put torpedoes on each track?
Etc., etc.
Still in training.
I'm not too familiar with NORAC but Rule 136 seems pretty similar to ours. In reality, the crew will contact the Dispatcher using the priority emergency radio tone, the Dispatcher will provide protection and inform other approaching trains, and once this is completed the crew will be relieved of the requirement to go out and flag.
If for some reason the crew could not contact the Dispatcher by radio or phone (pretty slim odds of that these days) then yes, flag protection would be required. The Conductor would head one way (probably to the rear) and the Engineer the other. The wording in this rule probably dates from when trains were shorter and all carried crew members at both ends, our rule's wording certainly does.
Torpedoes are not mentioned in the 2011 version of NORAC I found online, and they have been gone from the Canadian rulebook for decades. But if they were to be used they would be placed on all tracks, never know which track an approaching train might be on.
I know of precisely one example during my working career where a crew started to go out and provide flag protection. They were shoving cars toward a signal and due to a miscommunication between the Conductor and the rest of the crew they thought they would be getting a signal immediately, when in reality they would go after another train. In bright sunlight the Brakeman (riding the point) misidentified their red Stop Signal as a yellow Approach aspect (the dim old searchlights can be pretty hard to see through the glare), and they ran through the red before the Conductor (in the locomotive cab) realized how far they had really gone (the Engineer of course was just following the Brakeman's instructions).
For some reason the other train could not immediately be contacted, and it was known that they were close, so the Brakeman ran out in their direction to attempt to flag them down. Fortunately they were able to make radio contact well before the other train came within sight of the flagman.
The Conductor had been talking to the Dispatcher on a company-issued cellphone, as opposed to on the radio where the entire crew could have heard the conversation.
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I haven't seen a torpedo in years. They've been gone from GCOR for a few editions now.
Jeff
Thanks, Dude, for all that.
You guys are right. NORAC doesn't mention torpedoes. I jump around a lot in what I'm reading; I must have had torpedoes on the brain from somewhere else, like a Classic Trains article.
So is the drill to light the fusee, and also use a red flag? Or would you use a hand signal (at night with a lantern)?
How long does a fusee burn? Seems like you'd need to grab quite a few before you trek out there.
So, say a train comes from behind, sees the flagging, and stops in time. I assume that then ITS crew would go back to flag its rear end. So does that relieve the rear flagger from Train A?
Properly deployed, does a fusee just lie on its side between the rails? Facing the possible following train? Sideways? Any old way?
Lithonia OperatorProperly deployed, does a fusee just lie on its side between the rails? Facing the possible following train? Sideways? Any old way?
The light from a fusee is omnidirectional - it can be seen from all directions once its chemical reaction is started.
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Fusees have/had a metal stake sticking out the bottom of one end that would hold it upright when stuck into a wooden tie. A veteran brakeman could throw a lighted fuse from the rear deck of a caboose and stick it into a tie.
Most of the fusees we carry are of the five minute variety. Public safety usually has 20 minute fusees/flares. I usually use my stock of FD fusees when doing banner tests on the mainline.
I haven't seen a fusee with a spike in ages. Nowadays they have a wire frame of sorts that you bend down to create a tripod.
I would opine that flagmen are sort of a throwback to TT&TO operation. These days signals are in place on most busier lines, and Form D's give a train exclusive authority.
But... If you look at the rules, a train can only back up to the last point where they could be called clear - ie, milepost or established control point/station. If someone with authority to do so has reported a train clear of milepost "X," then the DS can give another train a Form D to that point.
Thus, if a train is stopped in a location where such a situation might occur, a flagman might just be desirable...
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I believe the NORAC rule LO cited is 136. Emergency Stops: Protection. It says if there is an emergency application on a moving train, the "....crew members must immediately protect adjacent tracks....." (emphasis mine). They also have to call " Emergency Emergency Emergency " over the radio. The whole rule is intended to protect trains on adjacent tracks from equipment on the stopped train that may be fouling the adjacent tracks due to the emergency application. The radio call alerts trains near the stopped train; the flaggers protect trains coming into the are that might not have heard the radio call.
None of this (radio call, flaggers) would be necessary if the train were on a single track. A train has to have a Form D to occupy a controlled track under NORAC rules and that Form D should protect the stopped train from any other movements. There are no other trains to protect against.
The original iteration of CSX's CADS had a Item in DTC (Direct Traffic Control) authorities that identified Flag Protection, as the original iteration straddled the change from TTTO operations with crew members on both ends of trains to the two man crew operation. When two man crews were given their DTC authorities the Train Dispatcher would specify NO for 'Flag Protection'. Subsequent iterations of CADS removed that line from DTC authorities and later Track Warrants when issued on Form EC-1.
tree68 I usually use my stock of FD fusees when doing banner tests on the mainline.
I usually use my stock of FD fusees when doing banner tests on the mainline.
Thank you for providing me a lesson via google on railroad operations today!
Most instances I've read about where a train stopped unexpectedly out in the boonies seemed like the rear flagman walked out so many steps depending on the speed limit on the track, like 500 steps or 1000 or whatever, and waited with the flag in case a following train appeared. If the train was able to move again, the flagman would be 'whistled in', and then would light a fusee and put it on the track in case a train came while he was getting back to the caboose. Of course if there were more than one track, the flagman could flag them too, you wouldn't need one flagman for each track.
The likelyhood that a train would stall on a four-track mainline - which would mean it was trackage meant for high speed passenger/commuter travel - that wasn't signalled would seem unlikely to me? Even if a following train was allowed to go through a 'stop and proceed' type stop signal, it would still by rule be required to be going slow enough to be able to stop if another train was visually spotted in front of it.
wjstix... The likelyhood that a train would stall on a four-track mainline - which would mean it was trackage meant for high speed passenger/commuter travel - that wasn't signalled would seem unlikely to me? Even if a following train was allowed to go through a 'stop and proceed' type stop signal, it would still by rule be required to be going slow enough to be able to stop if another train was visually spotted in front of it.
The physical characteristics of the areas that railroads have built their lines can seriously compromise sightlines for trains. The speed mentioned in Restricted Speed rules - in lines with a great deal of curvature as well as being operating through cuts may be many times higher that a following train get get stopped within. The is WHY Restricted Speed mentions 1/2 THE RANGE OF VISION.
rdamonThank you for providing me a lesson via google on railroad operations today!
Glad to help!
When I was a newly marked up conductor, we were coming back to Avon from Crestline. For some reason there was a hang up at the diamond / crossovers at Quincy. There was a long westbound intermodal train stopped on the north track. Another train was stopped ahead of us at the signal on the south track. As we pulled along side the intermodal the engineer stopped the train in a right hand curve with seemingly a lot of track ahead of us. I asked him why we stopped here. He said it seems like a good place. After an hour or so, the stack train started moving. As the rear end went by and continued ahead, the rear of the train ahead of us suddenly appeared. It was about 400 feet ahead of us. That experience taught me all that I ever needed to know about 1/2 the range of vision.
adkrr64 I believe the NORAC rule LO cited is 136. Emergency Stops: Protection. It says if there is an emergency application on a moving train, the "....crew members must immediately protect adjacent tracks....." (emphasis mine). They also have to call " Emergency Emergency Emergency " over the radio. The whole rule is intended to protect trains on adjacent tracks from equipment on the stopped train that may be fouling the adjacent tracks due to the emergency application. The radio call alerts trains near the stopped train; the flaggers protect trains coming into the are that might not have heard the radio call. None of this (radio call, flaggers) would be necessary if the train were on a single track. A train has to have a Form D to occupy a controlled track under NORAC rules and that Form D should protect the stopped train from any other movements. There are no other trains to protect against.
That is my understanding of the rule. It is not to flag protect the train that has had the UDE. It is only to protect any trains that happen to be approaching on tracks adjacent to the track with the train than has gone into emergency. And the point is that until the reason for the UDE is investigated, it must be assumed that it may have resulted from a derailment that has fouled the adjacent tracks with derailed cars. This precaution would apply no matter what type of signal protection is in place to protect the train stopped by the UDE.
So when the UDE happened, it is possible that another train on an adjacent track is very close. In such cases the crew of the train stopped with the UDE would make every effort to immediately get a fusee in front of the approaching train only because there is a possiblity of a derailment ahead that is fouling the approaching train. So it would seem that the normal walking back procedure to protect the rear of the train with the UDE would not apply. The actual procedure would call for action as soon as the UDE occurs, and even before the train has stopped if another train is close.
The one case of this type of emergency that comes to mind is the Casselton, ND oil trail wreck a few years ago.
When a train goes into emergency, besides dialing up the dispatcher using the emergency feature (which for us is 9 1 1 on the radio key pad) the crew is supposed to call out over the radio "emergency" three times and then state where they are stopped at. Any approaching train is supposed to immediately slow down and can proceed at restricted speed, prepared to stop short should something have fouled the adjacent track. Once the train has been inspected and it's known nothing is fouling, trains on adjacent tracks can proceed at track speed. Once the dispatcher has been notified, they will notify other trains approaching the train in emergency.
In practice, if a train goes into emergency and a headlight is seen closely approaching we usually call them directly on the radio first. Such as "Westbound approaching (location) we're in emergency." Then dial 9 1 1.
One requirement of the flagging rule was when train speed dropped to 1/2 or less of the maximum subdivision speed they were to drop lit fusees every so often. The time period being less than the listed burning time of the fusee. We have 10 minute ones, I've seen CSX 5 minute ones. Once higher speed was resumed, you no longer needed to drop fusees.
Slowing a potential following train would give a flagman more time to go back the prescribed distance, or at least as far as possible before a following train showed up.
Fusees now are mostly used to mark the end of a shove at night, thaw out a frozen lock, protect a crossing. It can also be used for efficiency testing, but even for that more often at night they'll use a reflectorized red flag or a battery operated red light.
jeffhergert One requirement of the flagging rule was when train speed dropped to 1/2 or less of the maximum subdivision speed they were to drop lit fusees every so often. The time period being less than the listed burning time of the fusee. We have 10 minute ones, I've seen CSX 5 minute ones. Once higher speed was resumed, you no longer needed to drop fusees. Slowing a potential following train would give a flagman more time to go back the prescribed distance, or at least as far as possible before a following train showed up.
I believe the yellow fusees were used for this, instead of red. Yellow ones are no longer stocked by the railroads though they might still be made (according to their website, CIL still makes torpedoes).
I've heard of green fusees but I've never actually seen one. We do have a few old yellow ones at the museum, they are slowly being used up in demonstrations, along with our torpedoes.
jeffhergert Fusees now are mostly used to mark the end of a shove at night, thaw out a frozen lock, protect a crossing. It can also be used for efficiency testing, but even for that more often at night they'll use a reflectorized red flag or a battery operated red light. Jeff
The other night I used several fusees to melt the ice out of the lead unit's front drawbar so the pin could drop, the previous crew had ran through a bunch of snowdrifts with the knuckle open.
Our flashing red lights used to be on a tripod, until someone failed the test and wrecked it. Now they just drop a little red light between the rails.
Canada must not have a requirement that every Engineer be 'banner tested' every so often, when working backwoods jobs I've gone well over a year without seeing red or yellow flag tests.
Yellow fusees were for control operators at manual interlockings to flag trains through the plant.
I remember reading that there were 15 minute fusees that were capable of burning red, yellow and green. Each color burned for 5 minutes.
Unattended fusee rules have changed over time. Currently, if we come across one we are to stop, consist with good train handling. Then proceed one mile at restricted speed. If we are already at restricted speed, then we are required to stop short of the fusee, then can proceed another mile at restricted speed.
Previous rules required stopping for an unattended fusee. If not at restricted speed when sighted and you stopped with the fusee behind you, you waited 10 minutes before proceeding at restricted speed for a mile. If you stopped short you waited until the fusee burned out and then proceeded at restricted speed for a mile. I've seen rule books that allowed a stopped train to extinguish the burning fusee rather than wait the 10 minutes.
We're required to be stop tested at least once a year. Having a dispatcher hold a signal counts. I remember once we stopped for our crew change at the appointed spot that was short of an absolute signal. A manager came up and checked us for current general orders, bulletins, etc. She also said she would put me in for a stop test. I didn't argue against it, but I guess she didn't see that the absolute signal was displaying a restricting indication. I wasn't required to stop short of it.
I wonder if we're reading from different old rulebooks.
In the Canadian UCOR (1962 revision, in use until the CROR was written) a movement encountering a burning red fusee must stop, then proceed at restricted speed. If the fusee was yellow the movement did not have to stop, but still had to reduce to restricted speed.
The rule about dropping lighted fusees does not specify a colour.
http://waterlooregionmodelrailwayclub.ca/operations/1962-ucor/r7/
http://waterlooregionmodelrailwayclub.ca/operations/1962-ucor/r82/
Old NORAC called for a stop and proceed at restricted speed for a mile.
Current edition calls for a reduction to restricted speed, continued for a mile.
Are engines even stocked with fusee's any more?
Still required. It's on our engine inspection forms. Can't speak for other railroads.
The CROR still contains a emergency flagging rule that mentions fusees, so we still have them.
Like Jeff said, they are normally only used for thawing stuff nowadays. I've never seen one used for an efficiency test (though I'm sure it's happened up here), and if we are shoving equipment at night the Conductor always has a lantern or flashlight.
I haven't heard of a fusee being used for effeciency testing in quite awhile. They used to be used at night almost exclusively. I think the problem with fusees is that they burn out.
I remember one night working in the yard. We were turning power on a wye where one side was the CTC controlled main track. We were held up by another yard move, so when we finally got to the main track switch we spied the burning cardboard handle of what was a fusee. It was no longer burning red, just about burned out, so we didn't have to stop for it.
There is one test that they don't do very often. It's called the "sidewinder" test. A manager pops a fusee on a curve after the head end and a few cars are past. it's a test to see if crewmembers are looking back over their train.
jeffhergertI haven't heard of a fusee being used for effeciency testing in quite awhile. They used to be used at night almost exclusively. I think the problem with fusees is that they burn out.
That's why we can use cones now, or flags.
I went through three 20 minute fusees once when the train was running late. And they were a ways up the track, so I was chancing not being at the banner when they came through. Got it done, though.
jeffhergert I haven't heard of a fusee being used for effeciency testing in quite awhile. They used to be used at night almost exclusively. I think the problem with fusees is that they burn out. I remember one night working in the yard. We were turning power on a wye where one side was the CTC controlled main track. We were held up by another yard move, so when we finally got to the main track switch we spied the burning cardboard handle of what was a fusee. It was no longer burning red, just about burned out, so we didn't have to stop for it. There is one test that they don't do very often. It's called the "sidewinder" test. A manager pops a fusee on a curve after the head end and a few cars are past. it's a test to see if crewmembers are looking back over their train. Jeff
Well, that seems ridiculous. Sure, you want the crew to look back regularly. But to give weight to the idea that someone would look back at that particular spot is silly. You can't have someone looking back full time, and that's what it would take to ensure such a test would be passed.
Righthand curves means it's the engineer. How much do you want him looking backwards?!? Some routes haves LOTS of curves. For example, the CSX line in WV that the Amtrak Cardinal uses.
Are any of these weed weasels actually decent human beings?
Lithonia Operator Are any of these weed weasels actually decent human beings?
Company policy prohibits such behaviour while on duty.
SD70Dude Lithonia Operator Are any of these weed weasels actually decent human beings? Company policy prohibits such behaviour while on duty.
Funny!
But sad.
Lithonia Operator SD70Dude Lithonia Operator Are any of these weed weasels actually decent human beings? Company policy prohibits such behaviour while on duty. Funny! But sad.
In truth, some are decent human beings, some give weasels a bad name.
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