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Question on fluidity in Chicago

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Question on fluidity in Chicago
Posted by CMStPnP on Thursday, January 7, 2021 5:15 PM

So I am curious with the various rail projects around Chicago.   Are we going to see a meaningful increase in speed of freight handling through the city or are more projects going to be needed?   I am thinking the projects in the works now are too small to have any real impact and Chicago will still remain a city of major freight rail congestion...........which is kind of sad, that it is not being addressed in a more meaningful way.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, January 8, 2021 6:50 AM

Are there still trailers and containers being drayed on streets in Chicago for  "thruough intermodal sevice?"

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Friday, January 8, 2021 9:37 AM

I'm not sure about the current situation,  but they used to be moved by roads from a UP Global yard in Rochelle (~80 miles due west)  to other yards in the city. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, January 8, 2021 10:14 AM

daveklepper

Are there still trailers and containers being drayed on streets in Chicago for  "thruough intermodal sevice?"

 
Most definitely.  I live just south of Clearing (about a mile from the crest of the hump) and not too far from Clyde and I see plenty of them on the road for interchange.
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Posted by rrnut282 on Friday, January 8, 2021 10:55 AM

Unfortunately, I see human nature compensating for any and every improvement in transit times CREATE creates.  

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Posted by greyhounds on Friday, January 8, 2021 1:17 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH
daveklepper Are there still trailers and containers being drayed on streets in Chicago for  "thruough intermodal sevice?"   Most definitely.  I live just south of Clearing (about a mile from the crest of the hump) and not too far from Clyde and I see plenty of them on the road for interchange. A

 
As someone who has had experience with the rubber tire interchange of “Through Intermodal Service” in Chicago, I’m convinced that the people who object to it just don’t understand rail transportation.  Aggregation and sorting are involved, often with multiple occurrences of such during a “Through Intermodal Service”. 
 
The street interchange works fine and is, when used, the most efficient method available.  Otherwise, it wouldn’t be used.  It is a wonderful example of rail-truck integration using each mode to its best advantage.
 
As an example, I’ll cite a decent railroad customer that ships three northbound container/trailer loads per day out of Memphis.  The railroad ends at Chicago (OK, guess the railroad I’m talking about.)   One of the loads goes on by another railroad to the Twin Cities.  One goes on by another railroad to Toronto.  And the third load is a split delivery with half going to Chicago and half going on to Milwaukee by highway.
 
To keep these loads off the street in Chicago the railroad would have to assemble three blocks on the train leaving Memphis, and that’s just for these three loads.  If there were loads going to Seattle, they’d need to assemble an additional block for Seattle, etc. 
 
There just isn’t enough freight to every possible destination to justify making a block for every possible destination.  And if there was, they’d have to get the train broken up and put a crew/engine on each block to move it to the receiving carrier.  That would be time consuming and add extra expense.
 
It’s far more efficient and expeditious to just load everything out of Memphis as a “Chicago” load.  At Chicago, the freight is unloaded from the railcars and put on the street.  The Twin Cities load is taken to the proper rail terminal in a few hours, loaded in the right block on the right train, and forwarded to destination.  The Toronto load is similarly handled.  The Chicago/Milwaukee load is delivered by a driver to both receivers.  It all works fine and expedites the freight movement.  Why do people have a problem with this?
 
A qualification!  If a decent sized block for a destination can be aggregated at origin that block can stay on the rail for transfer in Chicago in an efficient and expeditious manner.   We’d do that with LTL loads from Yellow Freight moving out of E. St. Louis to Seattle routed ICG-Chicago-BN.  We got a solid 10 loads per day and would use a switch crew to move them on flatcars to the BN’s Cicero intermodal terminal.
 
It all depends on the volume and aggregation situations.
 
 
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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, January 9, 2021 12:19 PM

Understand.   Thanks~

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Posted by Gramp on Saturday, January 9, 2021 1:29 PM

Makes good sense.

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, January 9, 2021 2:05 PM

Considering the multiplicity of destinations both within the Chicago area as well as final destinations of interchange traffic - it can be exceedingly difficult to aggregate a sufficient block of traffic that warrants being interchanged as a all rail block between carriers.

To even load such a block at a origin location requires a high level of dedication and skill with the loading plan.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Saturday, January 9, 2021 3:12 PM

greyhounds
Why do people have a problem with this?

It's kind of stupid.........is my problem with it.

The solution here is a pretty simple one though probably costly as well.   The railroads solved it with  UNION PASSENGER STATIONS.     Do the same deal with the container yard concept.    Have one per city served by all the railroads and shift the containers within the yard between railroads instead of cross town.   Seems to me that would be a major cost cutter and carbon emission saver here.

Granted consolidating the yards into a central location would be difficult and getting everyone access would be difficult.    So perhaps the sheer cost and effort there is what is preventing this from happening.    However, I see this as something the railroads created via their competitive nature and not pushing back to figure out which way would be best so that everyone could benefit but instead having Class I carrier tunnel vision.

I don't know what can be done at this point or if making it a Federal Project would be agreeable or might help.    Seems to me you would need a lot of land to accomplish possibly some new rails as well.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, January 9, 2021 3:29 PM

CMStPnP
greyhounds
Why do people have a problem with this? 

It's kind of stupid.........is my problem with it.

The solution here is a pretty simple one though probably costly as well.   The railroads solved it with  UNION PASSENGER STATIONS.     Do the same deal with the container yard concept.    Have one per city served by all the railroads and shift the containers within the yard between railroads instead of cross town.   Seems to me that would be a major cost cutter and carbon emission saver here.

And as we have seen in Chicago - even a 'Union Station' did not bring ALL the carriers and all the rail traveling public to a single station.  Grand Central, LaSalle Street, Dearborn Street, IC Central Station a until the creation of Amtrak, and I belive Northwestern Station is still in use for METRA commuter service.

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 9, 2021 4:02 PM

A hog can get through Chicago without changing cars.  Apparently a container can't...

Borrowed freely from an early 20th century editorial...

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, January 9, 2021 4:15 PM

tree68
Borrowed freely from an early 20th century editorial...

I thought it was Robert R. Young, and decidedly mid-century.

And that it led to the determination that very little passenger traffic actually valued going through Chicago, and the traffic that did wouldn't cover the cost to provide the service...even as a few cars, triweekly...

which is much of the point being made about the containers.

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Posted by tree68 on Saturday, January 9, 2021 4:38 PM

Overmod
I thought it was Robert R. Young, and decidedly mid-century.

Duly noted.  

The sentiment remains.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, January 9, 2021 5:48 PM

tree68
 
Overmod
I thought it was Robert R. Young, and decidedly mid-century. 

Duly noted.  

The sentiment remains.

And the carriers that operated 'through car' services through both Chicago and St. Louis only provided that service for a few years as the demand didn't benefit the bottom line in black ink.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, January 9, 2021 6:02 PM

BaltACD

 

 
CMStPnP
greyhounds
Why do people have a problem with this? 

It's kind of stupid.........is my problem with it.

The solution here is a pretty simple one though probably costly as well.   The railroads solved it with  UNION PASSENGER STATIONS.     Do the same deal with the container yard concept.    Have one per city served by all the railroads and shift the containers within the yard between railroads instead of cross town.   Seems to me that would be a major cost cutter and carbon emission saver here.

 

And as we have seen in Chicago - even a 'Union Station' did not bring ALL the carriers and all the rail traveling public to a single station.  Grand Central, LaSalle Street, Dearborn Street, IC Central Station a until the creation of Amtrak, and I belive Northwestern Station is still in use for METRA commuter service.

 

Yes it is.  Until 1955 it hosted all the City Streamliners as well as the 400 Fleet. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, January 9, 2021 6:04 PM

There's a lot of old,  "all or nothing" thinking on display. 

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Posted by Gramp on Saturday, January 9, 2021 6:41 PM

Spontaneous order. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, January 9, 2021 7:01 PM

charlie hebdo
There's a lot of old,  "all or nothing" thinking on display. 

Coupled with a lot of 'somethng for nothing' being displayed to.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, January 9, 2021 8:28 PM

greyhounds

 

 
 
 
A qualification!  If a decent sized block for a destination can be aggregated at origin that block can stay on the rail for transfer in Chicago in an efficient and expeditious manner.   We’d do that with LTL loads from Yellow Freight moving out of E. St. Louis to Seattle routed ICG-Chicago-BN.  We got a solid 10 loads per day and would use a switch crew to move them on flatcars to the BN’s Cicero intermodal terminal.
 
It all depends on the volume and aggregation situations.
 
 
 

While the vast multitude of intermodal might be rubber tired across the Chicago metro area, I've seen in train lists blocks of well cars with containers all destined for the same ramp on CSX or NS.  I think these might be interchanged directly to either carrier. 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, January 9, 2021 9:02 PM

The solution to the Chicago rail congestion would be to have the final round of transcontinental mergers.  That would spread some routes away from Chicago, and spread other interchange points across the country.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Saturday, January 9, 2021 11:05 PM

BaltACD
And as we have seen in Chicago - even a 'Union Station' did not bring ALL the carriers and all the rail traveling public to a single station.  Grand Central, LaSalle Street, Dearborn Street, IC Central Station a until the creation of Amtrak, and I belive Northwestern Station is still in use for METRA commuter service. Add Quote to your Post

Thats true but I wonder how hard it would be to flip this to a centralized terminal of multiple carriers concept so at most you can just carry the container to another waiting train vs driving it across town.

I actually drive on the Chicago freeway system at times.   The congestion with trucks is horrible at times on the freeways.

 

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Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, January 9, 2021 11:55 PM

CMStPnP
It's kind of stupid.........is my problem with it.

 

Well, so much for trying to have a reasoned, intelligent discussion on this forum.  With a response like this one, that can't happen.  It would have been nice during this winter lockdown.  But NO.  The response is "It's kind of stupid..."

As told in my presence by one Robert Reebie (As in the RoadRailer Robert Reebie) a union intermodal terminal was proposed for Chicago when he was working for the New York Central marketing department.  The proposal made it all the way up to the Real Mayor Daley, AKA King Richard the 1st.  Hizhonordamayor was reported to be quite enthused with the proposal.

But then some folks with pencils, paper and adding machines (It was the 1950s) started analyzing the numbers.  Things just didn’t work out money wise.  If any such facility had been built it would be antiquated today.

While containers and trailers stay on their railcars through Chicago when it makes sense to do so, rubber tire interchange also is used when it’s the better option. 

If you’re response to this is: "It's kind of stupid..." I’ll just say you’re in denial of reality.

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by CMStPnP on Sunday, January 10, 2021 2:19 AM

greyhounds
If you’re response to this is: "It's kind of stupid..." I’ll just say you’re in denial of reality.  

Oh really?   Because it doesn't read like efficiency to me and it also reads like the railroads have significant issues keeping the system fluid in their own respective terminals.

https://www.midwestinlandport.com/chicago-truckers-publishing-rail-turn-times/

 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Sunday, January 10, 2021 9:57 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
BaltACD
And as we have seen in Chicago - even a 'Union Station' did not bring ALL the carriers and all the rail traveling public to a single station.  Grand Central, LaSalle Street, Dearborn Street, IC Central Station a until the creation of Amtrak, and I belive Northwestern Station is still in use for METRA commuter service. Add Quote to your Post

 

Thats true but I wonder how hard it would be to flip this to a centralized terminal of multiple carriers concept so at most you can just carry the container to another waiting train vs driving it across town.

I actually drive on the Chicago freeway system at times.   The congestion with trucks is horrible at times on the freeways.

 

 

CMStPnP: Although we disagree about some things,  I tend to agree with you that there must be a better way.  Rubber interchange is only cheaper here because the rails don't incur the full costs to the rest of society of such a scheme. If trucking within city borders were reduced/banned at certain times,  perhaps that would force the rails to engage in some creative,  forward-leaning thought for viable solutions? Look to how this is accomplished elsewhere, including abroad, for examples? 

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Posted by n012944 on Sunday, January 10, 2021 12:07 PM

I am not sure where people get the idea that there is congestion in the Chicago area these days.  As someone who actually railroads on a daily basis there, I can say it is in pretty good shape.  That is with traffic almost at pre-pandemic levels.  

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/rail_industry_trends/news/AAR-Railroads-close-out-2020-with-traffic-near-pre-pandemic-levels--62377

 

I would say the one thing that is slowing things down is the reluctance to accumulate horsepower hours from other railroads.  Mainline power swaps on run through trains can make it tricky at times.

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Posted by Convicted One on Monday, January 11, 2021 1:35 PM

n012944
I am not sure where people get the idea that there is congestion in the Chicago area these days.

I think it might be due, in part, to the persistent propaganda pieces we read hyping the imperative to spend additional money on C.R.E.A.T.E. type projects.  

Once you become accustomed to the "never ending" nature of such appeals, I think it's just human nature to accept that  either  there must be genuine problems worthy of attention, or alternately conclude that the appeals are outright fraud.  So, in a way, I think you could say that  endorsement illustrates a willingness to try and be sympathetic towards mass-transit needs?

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Posted by MP173 on Monday, January 11, 2021 2:29 PM

Actually containers are moving thru Chicago by rail.

Union Pacific originates a train at their intermodal terminal south of Joliet (ICOG4) which is handed off to CSX (Q192) for North Baltimore, the big sorting yard for containers.

BNSF hands off 2 trains, one originates on Los Angeles and the other in Ft. Madison, Iowa which are handed off to CSX in Chicago (Q170 and Q172).  Train Q170 is BNSF train QLACNWH6 while Q172 carries the symbol QFTMCXO1.

Meanwhile over on the NS side, train 20W is a Chicago - Croxton NJ train which is handed off from BNSF (ZLACNYC).  This train originates in Los Angeles.  Not sure where it picks up enroute, my guess would be Clovis, NM.  This train is a very high priority movement of trailers and container, nearly all domestic UPS, FedX, YRC, and other domestic carriers.  It usually carries about 150-175 trailers/containers with about 50 UPS units and perhaps 25 FedX.

There is volume concentrate to profitably move from LA to NOrth Baltimore and LA to Croxton NY. These 3 EB trains collectively will have 400 - 500 containers on a daily basis.  

From North Baltimore, CSX is breaking these trains down for distribution to Louisville, Detroit, Columbus, and other locations.

I am unfamiliar with Ft. Madison operations on BNSF, so I cannot comment on how they are building that train, but my guess is block swapping is occuring with Chicago bound trains dropping off Texas, Kansas City, and other intermediate intermodal locations.

The Q192 from Union Pacific will typically only have about 100-150 domestics containers.  This train typically will carry XPO branded containers with CSX and pool containers...very seldom internationals.  Further, the first 30 or so cars are general freight, with refers in the mix.  My guess is that CSX and UP have worked out an agreement to handle what was the "Apple Train" between Washington/California to Albany area on a daily move to North Baltimore where it is built into a Selkirk train.

So, yes there are hogs moving thru Chicago (always slaughtered) and containers.  No passengers tho, without changing trains.

 

Ed

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Monday, January 11, 2021 6:12 PM

Reasons like this are why the pershible market for railroads has died.  My boss is starting to dab his toe in the water of this market so to speak with return loads from Texas back to Illinois.  Our drivers are literally going to up to 10 different places to get a trailer load of produce for a local grocery warehouse.  Let alone if we ever decided to play in the West Coast markets.  I asked my hubby that pulled produce out of California for years how many places he picked up out of.  He pulled out his map of the coolers of Salinas and stopped counting at 90 places in a 30 mile radius of that one city.  Then throw in Oxnard for berries Bakersfield for grapes and carrots the rest of the Central Valley for other produce.  He literally picked up out of 300+ places in his career that all where going to about anyplace in this nation.  Just imagine the railroads and their limited marketing departments trying to keep up with that today.  

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, January 11, 2021 10:22 PM

Shadow the Cats owner
Our drivers are literally going to up to 10 different places to get a trailer load of produce for a local grocery warehouse ... Just imagine the railroads and their limited marketing departments trying to keep up with that today.

Worse yet, they could easily go to 10 places or more enroute, or at destination, to drop off that produce, with equal facility.  Or cross-dock with smaller or more flexible vehicles for last-mile...

Railroads gave up these niches, effectively, long ago.  Even if management pursued them, labor considerations would likely preclude it -- even in the happy world we'd have had if RoadRailers had caught on for the traffic that would allow the heavier tare weight...

Where the rails shine is when there is aggregate traffic from the great many initiating points to put reasonable blocks or trainloads together, through to locations where the great many terminating points can then be served ... with different trucks and drivers.  In my opinion the UP 'logistics' service to Rotterdam was clearly an example, and the fact they chose not to sustain it is a cautionary tale here.  The same could be said, at a lesser scale, of CP Expressway used the ways that best applied.

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