The LIONEL Traditional O gauge box cars, flat cars, hoppers, and gondolas have length and height measurements that are accurate for 1/64th scale. The width of the cars is increased beyond the 1/64th scale measurement to make them fit over the O gauge track.
The LIONEL Traditional GP9 diesel locomotives are 1/48th scale in size, but have simplified details.
To size them back up to real life proportions you would have to make the length and height about 60% of actual cars.
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Shock ControlHas anyone ever made a full-sized 1:1 train with Lionel proportions, e.g., boxcars way too small but with full-sized trucks and wheels?
FWIW pretty much all US O scale model equipment is undersized compared to the track. O gauge is 1.25", real track is 56.5" wide. If you divide it out, it works out to 1:45.2 ratio, meaning all US 1:48 scale trains (1/4" = 1 foot)are slightly too small. In Britain and I think Europe, they use 1:43.55 ratio (7mm = 1 foot), so their models are slightly too large. That's also why all those neat European-made "O scale" automobile models are 1:43 scale.
763E came in both gray and black, usually the gray came with a tinplate (but roughly scale size) Vanderbilt tender, and the black usually with a rectangular tender a little shorter than the scale Hudson's. It cost (IIRC) about 1/3 of the scale Hudson, and could run on tubular track whereas the scale Hudson needed scale track or Lionel "t-track".
The 773 did first come out as part of the Lionel 50th anniversary in 1950. The 1960's version came with an undersized tender - lettered PENNSYLVANIA(!) For many years after, Madison Hardware's ads in MR featured the scale-size tender for sale by itself, so people could replace the undersized 1960's tenders.
To touch on something someone mentioned, the 700E wasn't the first 'scale' model produced for O scale, but because it was mass produced by a large corporation, it could be sold for a much cheaper price than most contemporary O models. This (and the B6 0-6-0 switcher) made it possible for more people to afford to get into scale modelling.
BTW the scale Hudson is generally called the 700E but most (all?) were actually 700EW engines - E for reversing unit, W for whistle tender.
OvermodFunny, I thought the 773 was introduced in 1950, and the 700E was the famous prewar engine
A thousand pardons please, you are correct. I confused the two. The 700E is indeed the pre-war scale Hudson, produced from 1937 to 1942. If I recall correctly it was Lionel's response to the burgeoning serious railmodeler market, others were producing scale locomotives by the late 30's so Joshua Lionel Cowan of Lionel thought it would be a good idea to get into that segment of the market. Cowan did a Hudson because it was his favorite real-world steam engine.
The semi-scale 763E was intended as kind of a "budget" model. Not so much a semi-scale piece, but libertys were taken with some of the details to keep the cost down. The 763E was produced from 1937 to 1940.
The 773 scale Hudson did hit the market in 1950, and 1950 only, although it would make several more appearances in 1964 through 1966, and I believe there was one last production run in 1999 in celebration of Lionel's upcoming centennial in 2000.
I had to hit the books over this one.
By the way, if you see an "E" after a three-digit model designator on a Lionel product that typically means it's a pre-war product, the "E" means it's got the automatic reversing unit, the "E" unit, installed, not all pre-war engines had them. Post war they pretty much all did, so the "E" designator was dropped.
By the way, for those interested here's a very good guide to post-war Lionels. It's a big help for those "Just what IS that thing I've got up in the closet?" questions.
http://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionelident.htm
I saw a 700E Hudson in an antique store about 30 years ago. For the price of it I could have bought a decent used car. But damn, that thing was beautiful! Wasn't it the first model locomotive that was correct in terms of detail and proportions?
Flintlock76However the 773 Hudson was actually a pre-war product, made to run on the aforementioned T-track.
(It was pre-Korean War, anyway... )
All true. However the 773 Hudson was actually a pre-war product, made to run on the aforementioned T-track. There were also scale-correct cars to go with it.
The downside was the 773's retail price, a heart-stopping (And remember, this was in 1939) $75! That doesn't sound like much, but in 1939 that same $75 would have gotten you a Winchester 30-30 rifle, a Colt .38 revolver, and you would have had $5 change coming!
The 773 was for serious, well-heeled modelers, it was no toy!
Norm Charbonneau's been featured on some TM videos, Lionel Nation 2 is one of them.
Plus Lionel has made different sized trains to run on different sized curves. O27 cars were quite a bit smaller than O gauge (O-31) cars like the 6464 boxcars. Pre-war they made true scale equipment eant to run on O-72 T-track. Some post-war engines (773 Hudson, F-3s, GP-7s, TrainMasters) were all scale or close to scale in proportions.
A good example of what can be done with today's 1:48 scale / 3-rail products from Lionel, Atlas, Sunset, etc. is Norm Charbonneau's layout, which has been featured by Atlas in some of their O track catalogues:
https://www.youtube.com/user/normcharbonneau
tree68Everything was scaled to that box, resulting in some very unprototypical matchups.
Naturally the #6 quarry truck (and the Inter-State Double Freighter, still a thing ahead of its time!) were a radically different scale from, say, the E-type. But taken in hand they were a joy to see... and yes, they fit in a common module.
Then they decided to out-Hot Wheel the Hot Wheels line, and even real proportions went progressively out the window. Ah, childhood!
If I wanted consistent scale, there was Wiking. Or Mini-TankS.
Flintlock76They were making toys after all.
Rather like Matchbox, where the governing measurement was that ~3" long box.
Everything was scaled to that box, resulting in some very unprototypical matchups.
I have a Matchbox model of the Oshkosh P15 crash truck, for which the wheels are taller than the average sedan, which is the same length as those very sedans...
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This is something that we've discussed on-and-off over on the "Classic Toy Trains" Forum from time to time. The reality is all toy train makers, and this includes Lionel, Marx, American Flyer (pre-war), and more currently MTH, RMT, and some others have always played a little fast and loose with scale. They were making toys after all.
Except now, when they do make scale trains for the advanced hobbyist and modeler. Then it's pretty darn close, you'd have to be a real rivet-counter to spot the differences.
I suppose the dimensions of a Lionel post-war O27 boxcar would be pretty close to the size of an 1880s-90s standard gauge boxcar. We tend to think the 40' long / 10'-6" boxcar has been around forever, but early cars were often only 7-8' high and 28 to 34' high.
Flintlock76 But I still can't figure out where the center rail is on the real 'roads. It's not where it's supposed to be!
But I still can't figure out where the center rail is on the real 'roads. It's not where it's supposed to be!
Some of the early (1895) New Haven electrifications used a center third rail. This idea was abandoned a few years later due to safety concerns. The operating reports stated that the electrification still functioned even when the water level was just above the railheads.
I remember wondering about the same question when I was a kid.
Shock ControlI'm talking classic postwar Lionel oddball proportions
That's not oddball, it's called "selective compression."
A while ago, when one of the Canadian manufacturers of freight cars (Trenton Works, I think) manufactured a 5250-cubic-foot covered hopper, I referred to it as they type of car Lionel would produce for an ACF Center Flow...outsized sills, exaggerated spotting features, etc.Probably not amusing unless you're a carchaeologist...sorry!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I believe there are those modellers who use N scale couplers for HO scale trains - because the size is closer to prototype...
Flintlock76 Lionel boxcars, and by inference all O gauge boxcars too small? Nah, they're in all sizes now, take your pick. The couplers, on the other hand, do tend to be a bit on the large size. That's OK, makes 'em easier to use! {snip}
Lionel boxcars, and by inference all O gauge boxcars too small? Nah, they're in all sizes now, take your pick.
The couplers, on the other hand, do tend to be a bit on the large size. That's OK, makes 'em easier to use! {snip}
I use Lionel couplers on my (Live Steam) Garden trains (CMBY RY).
I went to a park where there is a real caboose on display and measured the coupler every-which-way I could (width, height and circumference [in 2 directions])... the Lionel couplers are almost exactly 1:32 scale. That scale is the CORRECT scale if the Garden Gauge tracks are intended to represent Standard Gauge.
They work great whether body mounted (correct) or truck mounted (compromise to get around tight [non-scale] curves).
But they are definately too large for O-scale/gauge (1:48).
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Flintlock76Lionel boxcars, and by inference all O gauge boxcars too small? Nah, they're in all sizes now, take your pick. The couplers, on the other hand, do tend to be a bit on the large size. That's OK, makes 'em easier to use! But I still can't figure out where the center rail is on the real 'roads. It's not where it's supposed to be!
The couplers, on the other hand, do tend to be a bit on the large size. That's OK, makes 'em easier to use!
I'm talking classic postwar Lionel oddball proportions, not the revisionist O gauge stuff that tries to be more realistic.
So yes, I would like to know if anyone has tried to build a 1:1 train with Lionel proportions. It would be hilarious.
Has anyone ever made a full-sized 1:1 train with Lionel proportions, e.g., boxcars way too small but with full-sized trucks and wheels? It would be fun if someone did this, especially if they created three-rail tracks.
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