Sunnyland Remember Mom talking about per diem charges when she worked as Frisco keypuncher in 30's, each RR had to pay so much for cars they were using and hauling those cars in consist. Not sure how much or just how it was figured, but not a job I would want to do. She said each RR had a code # and years later she still remembered the numbers. I would mention a RR and she would say #115 or whatever their number was. Someone in accounting dept figured it all out and she would input the data on the waybills. Early forerunner of computers, she had to take a class to learn the system and that was her primary job when she worked at Frisco for 12 years. Cars all spread out all over, we would always watch on trips if we could see a Frisco car. The farthest away was boxcar in either Rawlins or Rock Springs, WY, far from home. And have a FB friend who worked for Conrail and saw many of them in PA, he has shared pics with me. So the cars did get around. Never saw a train with only their own cars and still do not.
Remember Mom talking about per diem charges when she worked as Frisco keypuncher in 30's, each RR had to pay so much for cars they were using and hauling those cars in consist. Not sure how much or just how it was figured, but not a job I would want to do. She said each RR had a code # and years later she still remembered the numbers. I would mention a RR and she would say #115 or whatever their number was. Someone in accounting dept figured it all out and she would input the data on the waybills. Early forerunner of computers, she had to take a class to learn the system and that was her primary job when she worked at Frisco for 12 years. Cars all spread out all over, we would always watch on trips if we could see a Frisco car. The farthest away was boxcar in either Rawlins or Rock Springs, WY, far from home. And have a FB friend who worked for Conrail and saw many of them in PA, he has shared pics with me. So the cars did get around. Never saw a train with only their own cars and still do not.
I'm 99% sure I saw one tonight passing through Toledo heading EB. All NS, 3 locos and about 100 NS hoppers. I didn't pay attention to the first few cars, and then I realized everything past that was NS. I haven't seen many, but they have all been NS, and most of the ones I've seen have been in the Columbus area.
PNWR and Balt, thanks for the explanations.
Shadow the Cats ownerBalt that explaintion right there explains why railroads get destroyed on shorter hauls by the OTR industry. To go 154 miles between cities they use a routing that is 3 times as long. If I routed my drivers that way I would be out of a job faster than my boss could punt me out of the freaking office.
Designing that operating plan for that traffic was above my pay grade - it was also above the pay grade of Division officers from the comments I was hearing. Some 'bean counters' figured it cost the company fewer overall beans.
You know bean counters - they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Balt that explaintion right there explains why railroads get destroyed on shorter hauls by the OTR industry. To go 154 miles between cities they use a routing that is 3 times as long. If I routed my drivers that way I would be out of a job faster than my boss could punt me out of the freaking office.
The answer to all of these is "it depends".
The two basic rules are that the origin road supplies the car, and foreign cars are to be loaded via the owning railroad or toward the owning railroad. If your regional railroad was an indepentent operator that would be the case. If if was a Class I spinoff, by contract the class I typically will supply the cars to control the traffic. In the case you immagined the other connection may or may not supply the cars.
The origin railroad agent will try to locate suitable cars, within the confines of whatever his deal is. Absent a specific agreement, neither connection has an obligation to supply cars to the regional railroad. In a time of car surplus however both connections will probably be happy to supply cars in hopes of getting some traffic and certainly getting some car hire out of a car otherwise rusting to the rails somewhere.
All three carriers could assign cars to the customer under CSD 145, if the cars (box) have load restraining devices. In this case, the cars must be billed back empty to the origin point and the railroad at origin would spot what was on hand without regard to reporting mark or destination.
The shipper could lease cars, but only with the permission of the originating road, the regional in your case. Shippers are not generally interested in leasing and managing box cars for a whole host of reasons, all of which come down to they expect the railroad to do it, and they do not want the fixed cost (and risk) associated with leasing, or worse, owning cars. Yes, the carriers will offer a lower freight rate, but they will only go as low as break even for them.
As to how long a free running car might be off line, about all that can be said is that if the owner is a true short line, it could be years, if demand is strong. If class I roads are storing that car type they will reverse route it to the short line upon unloading. If it is one of the big seven likely not much more than a few months, again if supply is tight. If surplus will come back pretty quickly.
Mac
Lithonia OperatorThanks,Balt. If a company on RRR needs a single boxcar, and can wait for RRR to have one on its property, what will the limits be on which cars can be chosen? That is to say, is RRR required to select a car which, after loaded, will then be headed in the general direction of the car's owner? And say RRR simply has no empty boxcars sitting around, nor any prospect of getting one soon. What would be the next step? If the car is headed west, would (in my model above) WRR be the next entity to call? Would the plant call around, or would RRR? And how does the billing work for securing a car from, say, WRR which sits 80 miles from the RRR-WRR interchange point? Will the shipper pay that? Or will RRR pay that since they were not able to produce a car sitting on their own trackage? Say the closest available car (for a westbound load) sits on ERR, only 10 miles east of the RRR-ERR junction. Would that car be chosen instead, because RRR/plant will then only have to pay for 10 miles of haulage to get the car? Finally, do some cars go many months, or even years, before they ever return to their home rails (or industrial plant)?
If a company on RRR needs a single boxcar, and can wait for RRR to have one on its property, what will the limits be on which cars can be chosen? That is to say, is RRR required to select a car which, after loaded, will then be headed in the general direction of the car's owner?
And say RRR simply has no empty boxcars sitting around, nor any prospect of getting one soon. What would be the next step? If the car is headed west, would (in my model above) WRR be the next entity to call? Would the plant call around, or would RRR? And how does the billing work for securing a car from, say, WRR which sits 80 miles from the RRR-WRR interchange point? Will the shipper pay that? Or will RRR pay that since they were not able to produce a car sitting on their own trackage?
Say the closest available car (for a westbound load) sits on ERR, only 10 miles east of the RRR-ERR junction. Would that car be chosen instead, because RRR/plant will then only have to pay for 10 miles of haulage to get the car?
Finally, do some cars go many months, or even years, before they ever return to their home rails (or industrial plant)?
The biggest determinant of who to order cars from is - which carrier is actually billing the shipment. If it is RRR, the cars will be order from RRR who 'may' deal with ERR and WRR to obtain the cars. If ERR or WRR are the billing carrier the cars will be ordered from those carriers. In general, if RRR participates in the routing and is due a division of the line haul charges from the shipment they are the party responsible for car supply.
Many short lines DO NOT participate in the billed route and are thus dependent on per car switch charges for their revenue stream. The switch charges are included in the pricing of the route, jus not separately stated. The switch charges will be paid by ERR & WRR as a function of the cars they handled to/from RRR. There is a lot of money that change hands 'under the surface' in how railroads deal with each other - from Class 1's to the shortest of 'switch carriers'.
There is a whole segment of rules that apply to had empty railroad owned cars are to be handled, which includes cars in 'assigned service' as well as cars that are 'free runners'. Railroad cars that aren't in either of the two designations mentioned are to the extents possible, be moved to the owning road loaded or empty. If a CSX originated load in a CSX car takes a shipment to Washington state - the terminating carrier will try to apply the empty car to car orders they have for loads moving back East, hopefully back to a CSX destination but at least back toward CSX interchange points. Thus the car could be loaded from Washington state to Topeka - upon being made empty at Topeka the car could be loaded to a CSX destination or moved empty back to a CSX interchange point.
It is possible for railroad cars to be moving off the owners rails for extended periods of time.
Thanks,Balt.
Lithonia Operator So here's the question. Bought by WHOM?
So here's the question. Bought by WHOM?
In the present world of PSR railroading - the WHOM will be that customer. If you do any train watching at all these days you will note that a increasingly high percentage of the cars going past you will have the X final letter in their car initials that indicates non-railroad ownership.
In saying the customer, most likely they will interact with one of the railcar leasing company's to secure the cars they need as opposed to securing cars in their own name as owner - unless they are already car owners for other plants that they own and operate.
A new company, or old company building a new facility, rarely start operations at full expected capacity. Reaching full capacity can be a matter of months or years with necessary car supply varying over that period of time.
In the start up days, without obtaining leased cars, the company may avail itself of the car supply of one or more railroads involved in the railroute of their shipments by placing their car orders and dealing with the number of cars supplied that may be substantially less than the number of cars they ordered over any period of time.
I've always wondered what makes a railroad decide "we need to buy x number of x type cars."
Let's say a company decides to build a plant adjacent regional railroad "RRR." The plant will need to receive 20 hoppers full of something every day. And it will need to get 10 empty box cars daily to ship out finished product.
RRR connects with Class 1 "WRR" 70 miles to the west. The loaded hoppers come from WRR after traveling 600 miles from the mine.
RRR connects at its east end to Class 1 "ERR" 120 miles from the plant.
The plant ships out 4 loaded boxcars daily via WRR, and 6 via ERR. Their final destinations vary from 300 to 900 miles away.
Now let's think about the time these hoppers and boxcars will be enroute.
In order to assure the plant's need for 30 cars daily is met, I'm thinking that figuring travel time, there is a need for 450 freight cars circulating.
Now, I realize the cars don't all have to be new, but let's say the existing traffic patterns would mean that 100 new hoppers need to be bought, and 50 boxcars.
MidlandMike BaltACD In the 1970's the rules of Per Diem were changed from being a daily charge to a houly charge. Some 'bridge carriers' (RF&P among others) were effective at getting and delivering cars in the same calendar day and thus were not responsible for their 'fair share' of the Per Diem; switching to a hourly basis made carriers responsible for their share of the handling. The revised rules also implemented a 'mileage' charge for how many miles move on individual carriers-this charge being facilitated the computerized consisting systems that report each move between terminals. Not all moves carriers make with cars encompass the shortest distance between location recieved and location delivered - some operating plans create circuitous mileage between initial origin and final destination. I understand that a carrier gets paid some division of the freight rate for a carload that they participate in, and that they pay the car owner per diem. However, now you talk about mileage. At first I assumed they would pay mileage to the car owner, but you mention curcuitous routes, which makes me think some one pays them for the miles. Exactly how does the mileage work?
BaltACD In the 1970's the rules of Per Diem were changed from being a daily charge to a houly charge. Some 'bridge carriers' (RF&P among others) were effective at getting and delivering cars in the same calendar day and thus were not responsible for their 'fair share' of the Per Diem; switching to a hourly basis made carriers responsible for their share of the handling. The revised rules also implemented a 'mileage' charge for how many miles move on individual carriers-this charge being facilitated the computerized consisting systems that report each move between terminals. Not all moves carriers make with cars encompass the shortest distance between location recieved and location delivered - some operating plans create circuitous mileage between initial origin and final destination.
I understand that a carrier gets paid some division of the freight rate for a carload that they participate in, and that they pay the car owner per diem. However, now you talk about mileage. At first I assumed they would pay mileage to the car owner, but you mention curcuitous routes, which makes me think some one pays them for the miles. Exactly how does the mileage work?
Mileage is also paid to the car owner. Division of the freight rate is not affected by whose car the load moves in.
When I retired the CSX Operating Plan to move a car from Baltimore to Richmond and other points South - was for the car to go from Baltimore to Cumberland and get switched into a train that ran from Cumberland to Richmond.
The Baltimore-Richmond mileage is approximately 154 miles. Baltimore to Cumberland is approximately 183 miles. Cumberland to Richmond is 276 miles. So to move a car from Baltimore to Richmond the car runs 459 miles instead of 154. The other thing to remember is that 'running repairs' brake shoes etc. get charged to the car owner through the car repair billing system - the charges in this system are agreed standard amounts. I am not able to access what the current per hourm and mileage rates are - they are based on the puchase price of the car and when it was built.
Car Hire amounts are settled between the carriers on a periodic basis (monthly I think, but it could be quarterly). Instead of a ARMY of Car Accounting Clerks that ran the system in the 60's and early 70's - the system is fully compterized these days.
BaltACDIn the 1970's the rules of Per Diem were changed from being a daily charge to a houly charge. Some 'bridge carriers' (RF&P among others) were effective at getting and delivering cars in the same calendar day and thus were not responsible for their 'fair share' of the Per Diem; switching to a hourly basis made carriers responsible for their share of the handling. The revised rules also implemented a 'mileage' charge for how many miles move on individual carriers-this charge being facilitated the computerized consisting systems that report each move between terminals. Not all moves carriers make with cars encompass the shortest distance between location recieved and location delivered - some operating plans create circuitous mileage between initial origin and final destination.
SunnylandRemember Mom talking about per diem charges when she worked as Frisco keypuncher in 30's, each RR had to pay so much for cars they were using and hauling those cars in consist. Not sure how much or just how it was figured, but not a job I would want to do. She said each RR had a code # and years later she still remembered the numbers. I would mention a RR and she would say #115 or whatever their number was. Someone in accounting dept figured it all out and she would input the data on the waybills. Early forerunner of computers, she had to take a class to learn the system and that was her primary job when she worked at Frisco for 12 years. Cars all spread out all over, we would always watch on trips if we could see a Frisco car. The farthest away was boxcar in either Rawlins or Rock Springs, WY, far from home. And have a FB friend who worked for Conrail and saw many of them in PA, he has shared pics with me. So the cars did get around. Never saw a train with only their own cars and still do not.
In the early days of railroading, carriers only moved the cars they owned between their online O-D pairs. If a shpment was going beyond the borders of the originating carrier the shipment had to be unloaded and reloaded onto the cars of the connecting carrier.
Per Diem is the tool that facilitated the railroads operating as a nationwide network. Every car was give a 'per diem value' that was calculated from the purchase price of the car and the age of the car keeping the 'time value of money' in the calculations. Per Diem let the carriers use each others cars for the 'daily rental fee' of the Per Diem value of the car.
In the 1970's the rules of Per Diem were changed from being a daily charge to a houly charge. Some 'bridge carriers' (RF&P among others) were effective at getting and delivering cars in the same calendar day and thus were not responsible for their 'fair share' of the Per Diem; switching to a hourly basis made carriers responsible for their share of the handling. The revised rules also implemented a 'mileage' charge for how many miles move on individual carriers-this charge being facilitated the computerized consisting systems that report each move between terminals. Not all moves carriers make with cars encompass the shortest distance between location recieved and location delivered - some operating plans create circuitous mileage between initial origin and final destination.
IA and eastern There has been several times that NS & CSX could not take these trains and UP & BNSF were parking for miles and turning double track into single track with sidings.Gary Until a couple of years ago, NS used to park unit coal trains, mostly with BNSF power(An GE and EMD pair) on them East of Toledo (Holland, Oh) on the Chicago line siding for day after day. In the old days, they were running continuously. Now they fire up once in a while to keep things ready to go. As of about 2018 or so, they rarely park them there for over 24 hours. Most of these trains are destined for Detroit Edison, but there are others in Michigan, too. A couple of times over the last 10 years, the train that parked there "fooled" people into running the gates on Wenz Rd, with fatal results when the moving train that was behind the parked one surprised them.
There has been several times that NS & CSX could not take these trains and UP & BNSF were parking for miles and turning double track into single track with sidings.Gary
Until a couple of years ago, NS used to park unit coal trains, mostly with BNSF power(An GE and EMD pair) on them East of Toledo (Holland, Oh) on the Chicago line siding for day after day. In the old days, they were running continuously. Now they fire up once in a while to keep things ready to go. As of about 2018 or so, they rarely park them there for over 24 hours. Most of these trains are destined for Detroit Edison, but there are others in Michigan, too. A couple of times over the last 10 years, the train that parked there "fooled" people into running the gates on Wenz Rd, with fatal results when the moving train that was behind the parked one surprised them.
IA and easternThere has been several times that NS & CSX could not take these trains and UP & BNSF were parking for miles and turning double track into single track with sidings.Gary
Railroading is reality. S..t happens and alternate plans have to be devised and implemented on the fly.
The need to hold unit trains most often happens because the consignee of the trains has operating issues that prevent the delivering carrier actually delivering the train(s) to the consignee. In the 'right sized' railroad physical plants of today there are only so many 'hiding' spaces for any carrier to hold trains. In the ultimate case a Embargo may be initiated that prevents the loading of shipment to a consignee whose facility is broken beyond immediate repair.
IA and easternWhen BNSF brings a unit trains and has to park in sidings. How say NS tell BNSF when to bring the unit train to the interchange point. Gary
Operating officials with both roads are in communication with each other. If one carrier tells the other to 'hold' a train because the one carrier, for its own reasons, can't handle the train. The carrier doing the holding will initiate a per diem reclaim against the carrier that wanted the train held. The carrier doing the holding is then responsible for the per diem charges for the cars(train) being held. Each car on the railroads have a hourly 'rental' fee known as per diem.
In normal circumstance cars (trains) are delivered to the normal interchange location upon the normal arrival of the cars(trains). Being held off the interchange is a exception.
Once upon a time per diem, was a daily charge - railroads such as the RF&P prided themselves in receiving cars (trains) after Midnight, switching and dispatching those those cars (trains) to the next carrier in the routing BEFORE Midnight - if they handled the movement in less than the 24 hours of the calender day - they were not on the hook for any per diem charges.
When BNSF brings a unit trains and has to park in sidings. How say NS tell BNSF when to bring the unit train to the interchange point. Gary
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