IMO Clinchfield is a joker that is not a wild card that would strengthen the hands of any of these proposals. The northern connection with only C&O would only have limited interchange of different grades of coal to each RR. Doesn't really help at StPaul for connections to SOU, N&W, Interstate. The joint use with SOU that is now used would have been somewhat OK exchanging cars at Kingsport to SOU might have worked or connections to SOU at Johnson City.
Then there is the small connections near Bostic with SOU and SAL or build a connection near Marion to SOU keeping the Old Fort loops to the west.. Then the connections at Spartanburg to SOU going every where, Piedmont and Northern, ACL (C&WC).
What I never understood was the SAL - ACL merger that allowed 2 healthy RRs to merge an disallowing SOU any trackage of those merged RRs into Florida ? Always had a pecular smell.
ncandstl576 However, what if the New York Central took a greater interest in the Virginian, to the point of absorbing it?
I think that I'll have to take a "product of unintended consequences" approach towards this, IF NYC gets the Virginian, that assures us that N&W won't
With a weaker N&W, it's possible that the Wabash and NKP amalgamation never comes to fruition. Perhaps never even an NS?
The entire landscape might look much different today.
How about the C&O picks up Wabash and MoPac?
PRR & NW get Southern, and Frisco?
NYC gets Virginian, Seaboard, and Clinchfield? Maybe even throw in the Rock?
GM&O becomes a wildcard?
And my personal favorite, Erie, Milwaukee, & Pacific.
adkrr64I don't think poor customer service was necessarily the problem. Customers were leaving the northeast for greener pastures elsewhere
Rust Belt phenomenon, there it is.
alphasThe PRR had no choice. In order for the N&W, NKP, Wabash and others merger to go through, PRR was ordered in 1963 by the ICC to sell its stock in both N&W and the Wabash.
Certainly, but that being the case then you just don't do it. Again, you don't jettison a proven money-maker for some possible long-term gain. But I admit, that's pure "Monday morning quarterbacking" on my part.
GrampTaking a different tack. Instead of seeing greener grass on the other side of the fence, had these railroads doubled down on serving their customers well and fostering online economic development, would they have been better off?
I don't think poor customer service was necessarily the problem. Customers were leaving the northeast for greener pastures elsewhere, declining passenger service was causing significant losses, not mention a lot of business lost to trucks and newly constructed interstates.
Taking a different tack. Instead of seeing greener grass on the other side of the fence, had these railroads doubled down on serving their customers well and fostering online economic development, would they have been better off?
"Probably the dumbest thing the PRR did was sell off the N&W, another money-making coal pipeline."
The PRR had no choice. In order for the N&W, NKP, Wabash and others merger to go through, PRR was ordered in 1963 by the ICC to sell its stock in both N&W and the Wabash.
MidlandMike I think the main reason for the NYC to acquire the VGN would have been for the Norfolk port outlet. However, the connecting NYC line thru southern Ohio seemed circuitous, and the VGN at the Deepwater end also seemed tortuous.
I think the main reason for the NYC to acquire the VGN would have been for the Norfolk port outlet. However, the connecting NYC line thru southern Ohio seemed circuitous, and the VGN at the Deepwater end also seemed tortuous.
That was my thought. The capacity of both lines would have needed major easing of curves and slopes. As well much second main track. Electrification extended to Deepwater would have helped.
The logical grouping in the Classic days that might have made for a stronger rail system, retaining competition, would have been NYC-B&O-C&O-Virginian-SAL-L&N-P&R-CNJ-D&H-Erie-L&HR and PRR-N&W-ACL-Sou-WM-LV-L&NE-NKP-DL&W. New England being a short-haul mostly terminal opweation with early declining in manufacturing could probably have been best served by a combined NYNH&H-B&M-MC-B&Aroustic.
Flintlock76 Well, if it ever did happen, that is, the New York Central purchasing the Virginian, they certainly would have had a guaranteed money-maker on their hands. A coal pipeline straight to the coast like the N&W? They couldn't help but make money. Probably the dumbest thing the PRR did was sell off the N&W, another money-making coal pipeline. Mind you, I'm speaking of the world of the 1900's though the 1990s. With coal loadings a fraction today of what they were then obviously none of the above would apply anymore.
Well, if it ever did happen, that is, the New York Central purchasing the Virginian, they certainly would have had a guaranteed money-maker on their hands. A coal pipeline straight to the coast like the N&W? They couldn't help but make money.
Probably the dumbest thing the PRR did was sell off the N&W, another money-making coal pipeline.
Mind you, I'm speaking of the world of the 1900's though the 1990s. With coal loadings a fraction today of what they were then obviously none of the above would apply anymore.
I agree, but I have no idea if the money made from the Virginian would have been able to prevent the Penn Central merger.
The N&W friendly relations with the Pennsy are well-known, though it should also be mentioned that the New York Central worked with the Virginian, albeit not to the degree of the former pair. However, what if the New York Central took a greater interest in the Virginian, to the point of absorbing it?
I don't think it's not too unrealistic for the N&W to not get their hands on the Virginian. The C&O and N&W both tried to obtain the Virginian at various points, meeting refusal from the ICC, until 1959, when the N&W finally absorbed it.
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