The New Haven became the progenitor of the "single=phase" system when it electrified it's surburban line in 1907 with 25 cycle , 11,000 volts traction power. The 6-track Harlem River freight line was electrified in 1912 , and the system was extended to New Haven in 1914. Eventualy the Harlem River Branch became the most direct route for an enormous volume of freight and passenger traffic between New England and points West and South of Philidelphia via the PRR.When the PRR electrified with the New Haven system , the PRR engineers, in their quest for a "standard" electric locomotive , avoided "re-inventing the wheel" and decided to build a locomotive that basically was a duplicate of a locomotive already operating; the New Haven's EP-3. The vast PRR electrification was confirmation that the NHRR established an electrification system that would be successful on any railroad for all types of rail traffic , and any volume of rail traffic. Re: "When the steam railroads electrified" , William D Middleton , "New Haven Power", J Swanberg.
Yeah, but remember that PRR adopted their own version of 11kV 25Hz for suburban electrification not too far removed from the NH version and used completely different design in most respects. To my knowledge New Haven never had anything like Liz, and the whole of what proved an abortive set of mistaken analogy, from the execrable L5s (AC or DC) through the 'Atlantic', 'Pacific', and 'Mikado' replacements (and the R1) before adopting the New Haven articulated chassis in the GG1.
(Afterward development again diverged wildly; as far as I know New Haven did not try the larger 428A in twin motor, and had some interesting but not fireproof excitement eith the Jets, and only came to modern freight electrics secondhand, while PRR ... the less said about anything not an E44 derivative, perhaps the better.
I for one would have liked to see earlier explicit high-speed cat in places on the New Haven, but all those wrecks in the Mellen years more or less killed much desire either for passenger speed or electrification to fulfill the promise of those expensive loop tracks on the east end...
Welcome to the casbah!
To be precise, the New Haven was the first heavy duty AC electrification. Several interurban lines were equipped with 25 Hz AC in the 1904-08 timeframe. Had GE's first installation for a 1200VDC interurban been done in 1904 instead of 1907, the AC interurbans would probably not been built. Do note that a large percentage of the interurbans were using 25Hz to supply their substations.
Getting back to the New Haven... While the PRR's installation varied significantly from the NH's installation, there were a lot of lessons learned from the NH installation.
Someone said that 16-2/3 Hz would have been a better choice, except that NH already had some 25 Hz equipment in their shops (or something like that) and that overruled the theoretical advantage of 16-2/3.
Edit: I remembered wrong -- it was 15 Hz that they said was better. Maybe Google scanned that issue of Railroad Gazette -- it's on page 177 of the issue for 16 August 1907. Says NH already had "a number of power houses... for trolley operation and, in addition, had equipped many of its shops with 25-cycle motors."
timzSomeone said that 16-2/3 Hz would have been a better choice, except that NH already had some 25 Hz equipment in their shops (or something like that) and that overruled the theoretical advantage of 16-2/3.
I do not now remember, but Tim and others probably do, but some of the argument for 25Hz distribution was applicability to other industrial (and, in those days, domestic!) electrification fed from the distribution power (up to 132kV in the case of some PRR Gibbs & Hill work).
Remember that a lot of the motor design in the early era was weird by even the standards of a couple of decades later -- this was still very much in the age three-phase two-overhead setups were still 'competitive' for railroad work. And while the mercury-pool rectifier existed in that era (Droege publishing in 1916 speculated on its size reduction to mount in moving equipment!) I think there was more emphasis on 'universal' motors on the one hand and humongous motor-generator setups on the other than on things concerned with rectifying higher-frequency AC.
At this long remove from the bad old days of odd D experimentation it takes some care, and perhaps a little imagination and frissons of schadenfreude, to recreate some of the 'excitement' caused by the early NH experiments with low truck-mounted motors.
PATTBAAThe vast PRR electrification was confirmation that the NHRR established an electrification system that would be successful on any railroad for all types of rail traffic , and any volume of rail traffic
Overheard at PRR headquarters:
"Confound it, the New Haven knows more about electrification than we do!"
"Ow, that Hertz!"
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Flintlock76 PATTBAA The vast PRR electrification was confirmation that the NHRR established an electrification system that would be successful on any railroad for all types of rail traffic , and any volume of rail traffic Overheard at PRR headquarters: "Confound it, the New Haven knows more about electrification than we do!" "Ow, that Hertz!" Sorry, couldn't resist.
PATTBAA The vast PRR electrification was confirmation that the NHRR established an electrification system that would be successful on any railroad for all types of rail traffic , and any volume of rail traffic
Sorry, can't resist either! While "very punny", your story cannot be true.
German scientists proposed the term "Hertz" to represent 'Cycles Per Second' in the 1920's to honor German physicist Heinrich Hertz. It was adopted by the International Electrotechnical Commission in October 1933.
So the brass at PRR would not have uttered your pun.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper VaporoGerman scientists proposed the term "Hertz" to represent 'Cycles Per Second' in the 1920's to honor German physicist Heinrich Hertz. It was adopted by the International Electrotechnical Commission in October 1933.
And in any case it wasn't commonly adopted here, at least in radio, for a lot longer than that: in fact the use with reference to the punsibility of a 'potential' of 17,000 watts ERP to represent how much 103.3 might mega'hertz' was still novel in the '70s. Kilocycles and megacycles and in power work 60 cycles per second were all I ever heard growing up.
New Haven on the other hand was famous for a much more famous Hertz, one that came to represent far more pain to PRR than alternating-current frequency ever could. But that's another New Haven superiority story for another thread...
(Incidentally I have always given more credit to Westinghouse than to the NYNH&H in the actual technical development of the 11kV 25cps approach to railway traction. That may not be fully justified, but I do think PRR had more in-house participation from its own engineers, notably including Gibbs, than New Haven did.)
Now when I was very little there was nothing more magical and 'big-time railroading' than New Haven triangular catenary! That had to be the essence of high speed and power ... right? It was very hard to learn that it was not, and then again to learn that el-cheapo-looking stuff strung with a bunch of weights dangling from pulleys was vastly better still. Ah! to have one's childhood safe again!
Flintlock76"Ow, that Hertz!"
Well, I thought it was funny; it brought a smile.
But then again, I was meditating. Ohm.......................
Overmodthere was nothing more magical and 'big-time railroading' than New Haven triangular catenary!
I had been told that A.C. Gilbert, whose factory was adjacent to the mainline, got the idea for the Erector Set from the New Haven catenary pole design.
NKP guy Flintlock76 "Ow, that Hertz!" Well, I thought it was funny; it brought a smile. But then again, I was meditating. Ohm.......................
Flintlock76 "Ow, that Hertz!"
That's reVolting.
Semper Vaporo NKP guy Flintlock76 "Ow, that Hertz!" Well, I thought it was funny; it brought a smile. But then again, I was meditating. Ohm....................... That's reVolting.
Watt did you say?
timz Someone said that 16-2/3 Hz would have been a better choice, except that NH already had some 25 Hz equipment in their shops (or something like that) and that overruled the theoretical advantage of 16-2/3. Edit: I remembered wrong -- it was 15 Hz that they said was better. Maybe Google scanned that issue of Railroad Gazette -- it's on page 177 of the issue for 16 August 1907. Says NH already had "a number of power houses... for trolley operation and, in addition, had equipped many of its shops with 25-cycle motors."
16-2/3 Hz was the standard traction power frequency in Europe and is better than 25 Hz for commutator motors (closer to DC). 15 Hz would be a bit better, but the only installation using that was the Visalia Electric. The downside of the lower frequency is that the transformers need to be larger (more turns in the windings and more iron in the core).
AC series motors are more expensive, and less efficient than an equivalent DC series motor.
"Ohmmmmm..."
"That's reVolting!"
"Watt did you say?"
That's Watt I like to see, folks getting into the spirit of things and Amping things up a bit!
I'm sure you get a big charge out of these electrifying puns!
NKP guy I'm sure you get a big charge out of these electrifying puns!
I do! But quite honestly I found it "shocking" that some had to over-analyze the joke! Short-circuits the humor, don't you know?
BZZZZZZZZT!!!
Telling this type of joke is punishing work...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68Telling this type of joke is punishing work...
Resistance is futile
I had actually said 'outer space is so cold that 'resistance is futile' but took it out...
It would have come up sooner than later by someone!
My induction is that I don't have the capacity to take this any more and time to go ohm.
Then there was a story about a diner who was getting fed up with one badly prepared course after another, finally stood up and yelled "What's butter worth to a shabby chef!". (non-EE's probably won't get this)
Warning: There's mho where that came from...
My head is shaking like a monstable multivibrator
I tried to just filter this out, but my response fell flat.
If this is part of some kind of plot, it doesn't bode well...
rdamonMy head is shaking like a nonstable multivibrator
rdamon My head is shaking like a monstable multivibrator
blue streak 1the vibrations of car radios before solid state electronics were the cycles of those times. Took up to a minute to amp up the speaker(s) for their rms vibrations.
... wonder how many understand how effective radiated power (ERP) comes about, is calculated, and works? Its all about the antenna!
The output of the Wilkinson we bought to replace the infamous Collins was nominal 10kW. Our ERP was 17kW, neatly beamed where humans' receivers would pick it up. We could test the emission pattern with an old fluorescent light tube wielded lightsaber fashion; it would light up neatly where the RF pattern hit the tube...
How soon we forget! Back in the old days people didn't worry so much about whether the car radio worked as much as they did whether the heater worked! Especially up north, trust me!
I remember a TV car ad from the '60s ( I don't remember which make) where one of the selling points of the vehicle was "...and a heater that WORKS!"
Ah, the good ol' days!
I thought Blue Streak was talking about the vibrators in the radios in the cars with 6-volt batteries. I remember seeing a driver banging his fist on the dashboard apparently trying to un-stick the vibrator.
And Flintlock, speaking of heaters, I still think of the heater in my '54 Pontiac as the most comfortable design. It was under the front seat and spread hot air onto the floor, warming the feet of front and rear passengers. Later designs blow hot air on your shins.
Does anyone remember the original topic of this thread?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington... the vibrators in the radios in the cars with 6-volt batteries. I remember seeing a driver banging his fist on the dashboard apparently trying to un-stick the vibrator.
The Panelescent doohickeys were vibrators too, to get battery voltage up to high tension, like a version of the trembler coils in a Model T ignition. Only much, much cruder and cheaper. (Of course the electroluminescent panels did not require any sort of clean waveform -- I forget how they cured the EM interference on the radio. There was a fairly long article in some classic-car magazine about all the ways those things went bad, and how to fix them or replace them (the replacement being the 'done thing' before the value of many of those cars in 'concours' condition went through the roof...)
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