I watched a train crew do a little switcheroo last night and it made me wonder about conductors riding a car. The unit train of empty ethanol cars came into town from the northeast and stopped for about 20 minutes. The mile and a half train then pulled south though downtown past a switch, then backed out of downtown going northwest. With the conductor riding on the front of boxcar being used as a buffer car, the train backed up about 2 miles. In that trip it went across a high bridge over a river, through a couple turns and up a really steep hill. Total hang time for conductor was probably 20-30 minutes. Questions: Would the 20-minute stop be for the conductor to walk a couple blocks ahead to throw the switch? (The train had stopped short of a busy street). Is the conductor just holding onto a car for 20-30 minutes? Are there rules about how long or how far a conductor can ride a car? Usually they have a traveling switchman in an SUV that shows up to throw switches to get cars into our spur. Would the fact that they didn’t use one in this case be because it was at 9:00 at night? Are there any instances where a crew can push cars without a man on the front?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
There's no rule about how long or how far a conductor/brakeman/switchman can ride the side of a car. On a shoving move, there may be contractual rules that could result in a penalty claim for riding an excessive distance.
The farthest I recall riding was about 5 miles, but it wasn't a shoving move. I had to check a car for a shifted load. It needed to be set out and was about 50 cars deep. Instead of walking up and then going to the next set out point, I just got on the side of a convenient car trailing the bad-order. I saved some time and could keep an eye on the car. I just wonder what the people at a couple of crossings thought when I went past them.
Others have ridden far longer than 5 miles. I know one train was once required to back up about 8 or 10 miles to a crossover to be run around a disabled train that wasn't going to move for 5 or 6 hours. There was also one elevator that was at the end of a 10 mile spur. There was no run around track, so to spot it required shoving the train the whole way.
There are some limited instances when the rules allow shoving without protection. It's usually going to be where the train has already been. Like backing up to pick up a crew member. There are conditions that must be met, like not going over any crossings (public or private) at grade. If all the conditions are met, it can be done. I've done it a couple of times.
Jeff
This is why there are "shoving platforms."
I did a 20+ mile shove move once - but I was comfortably ensconsed in the vestibule of a passenger car at the time.
One of our forum members tested for conductor on a Class 1 - she failed the part requiring her to hang on the side of a car for two minutes.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
A hold on tight story.
Many years ago, before hiring out I volunteered a couple of seasons at the Boone and Scenic Valley RR. Originally Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern RY and then C&NW, it has a "high bridge" over a creek that drains into the Des Moines River within site (at least when the trees were shorter) of the C&NW/UP's Kate Shelley bridge. This story was told to me by a retired CNW engineer who volunteered there.
Back in CNW days a local freight was going up hill towards Boone. About half way up the hill, coming out of the Des Moines River valley, they stalled. Too much tonnage for the engine. So they decided to "double" the hill. That is, cut off the head portion of the train, take it into Boone and return for the rear portion. Not an unheard of move years ago, not so much in current times.
The conductor came forward and a job briefing was held. The head brakeman, who wasn't a regular but called off the extra board, was sent back with instructions to tie down the rear portion and where to make the cut. After making the cut, they would stop and have him walk up and ride the head end into town to where they would set out the head portion. The brakeman said he would just ride the rear car in. Everything agreed to, the brakeman went back.
He tied down the train, made the cut and rode the side of a box car into town. When they were going by the switch of the track they needed they started to watch for hand signals from the brakeman to stop them when clear of the switch. There were no signals forthcoming. They stopped and went back to investigate.
They found the brakeman still hanging on the side of the box car. He was overcome with fear and couldn't let go. Not being a regular he had forgot about the high bridge, which doesn't have any side walk way, and rode the side of the car across that 156 ft drop. They had to assist him in getting off the car.
A tall tale? Maybe, but it was the "high bridge."
jeffhergertThey found the brakeman still hanging on the side of the box car.
Having ridden cars many times (while a clerk in Atlanta Yard), but never for more than about 5 mins, I can't conceive of doing it for 20-30 mins, on just a ladder or grab rails. Holy cow. Now, some hoppers would provide more "livability." And back when I worked, there were little walkways on the ends of many boxcars, with a corresponding full-width grab rail at chest height, and there you could actually stand comfortably. But once I'd hear slack in/out coming towards me I'd hang on like a vise-grip. If you fell from there, between the cars... I'd have been fired if a boss had seen me doing that. A trainman would not be able to signal from there. At least if you're on the side, if you fall, depending on the circumstances, you might not be hurt too badly. At some point, I gave up riding between the cars; it was wicked stupid.
Hanging on the side over a high bridge?! OMG. I'd have had a heart attack; heights are not my long suit.
jeffhergertThere are some limited instances when the rules allow shoving without protection. It's usually going to be where the train has already been. Like backing up to pick up a crew member. There are conditions that must be met, like not going over any crossings (public or private) at grade. If all the conditions are met, it can be done. I've done it a couple of times.
Surprised to learn that. So then, could such a move have been a viable alternative for the CSX train that had two crew members run over by Amtrak train 175,... a few years back? (Near Washington DC)
i think the ultimate tests for hang on the side of a freight car would be a cold winter storm with high winds. I have never had that exact task but growing up on a Dairy farm in SE Minnesota, riding on multiple wagons and climbing up the side of a 90 foot silo gives me an idea of what it would be like.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Back when digital computer controlled hump yards were relatively new (early 70's) the only way to get coupling speeds was to stand out in the yard (tracks were paint marked every 50 feet) with a stop watch and a clip board and record the time over the last two 50 foot marks before coupling. As it was uaually a long walk out to the coupling point from the hump tower (where the computer was, I was a programmer designing the software), the railroaders helping me get this data showed me how to jump on a moving car right below the group retarders and then ride the car out to the coupling area. The cars were usually going 7 to 10 MPH at this time and in hindsight this was a stupid move and today one if caught doing this would get thrown off the property in perpetuity :-) But back then it was common. As the cars would normally slow down as the proceeded out the track we would usually jump off just before coupling. However one day I was riding a cut of two empty hopper cars which didn't slow down. In addition to the clipboard and stop watch I was holding two single channel handie talkies (hump and signal channel) and so held on. When the cars coupled I was on the front side of the lead car and sort of swung back and fourth several times around the front corner of the car. Fortunately I hung on and didn't drop anything, but it gave me pause ;-)
73, Chris
The worst cars to ride were flats. While your feet were in the sturrup your hands were holding the grab iron at about your waist level. Very uncomfortable for any distance of more than a few yards!
nyc#25 The worst cars to ride were flats. While your feet were in the sturrup your hands were holding the grab iron at about your waist level. Very uncomfortable for any distance of more than a few yards!
Totally. I rode a flat only once. I remember thinking, this was a really bad idea.
I'm 6'5" - even our passenger cars from the 50's could use one more grab iron for me to be comfortable...
Fortunately, we can usually stand in a vestibule or end door instead of hanging on the side of a car...
very interesting stories from all. I could never do it and especially over a high bridge. Switchmen in the yard where Dad worked were told to never hang on between the cars. One guy did not think about it and was between the cars on an auto rack. One of the ramps to load cars was down and you can imagine the rest, He was cut in l/2 and that was a rough day for everyone at work, even in the yard office, as they all knew him. Rules are there for a reason.
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