First Rio Grande wanted to upgrade the narrow gauge to cut costs and cut curves to allow bigger locomotives to pull bigger trains. Second Rio Grande wanted to standard gauge the line but Soldier summit had to be rebuilt so Marshall pass had no money. Third Rio Grande tried to get the state of Colorado to fund three tunnels but the state would fund the Moffat tunnel but not the other tunnels. Gary
The western part of the Marshall Pass line ROW is under water where the Gunnison River has been damed between Gunnison and Cimmaron. Cerro Summit west of there was abandoned because of unstable ground. Once the thru line was broken in 1949, the only thing keeping the line open was the CF&I coal mine in Crested Butte.
Erik_Mag Jeff, That's pretty much what I remembered reading, i.e. the bonds for the Marshall Pass and Cumbres tunnels failing. One big incentive for the Moffat tunnel was using the pilot tunnel to supply water to Denver. The Marshall Pass tunnel could have provided additional water supply to Pueblo, but a Cumbres tunnel wouldn't improve anyone's water supply.
Jeff,
That's pretty much what I remembered reading, i.e. the bonds for the Marshall Pass and Cumbres tunnels failing. One big incentive for the Moffat tunnel was using the pilot tunnel to supply water to Denver. The Marshall Pass tunnel could have provided additional water supply to Pueblo, but a Cumbres tunnel wouldn't improve anyone's water supply.
Johnny
Erik_Mag I do recall reading about additional tunnels being discussed when the Moffat tunnel was under construction. I distinctly recall that a tunnel under Cumbres was proposed and talk of another tunnel proposal that may have been Marshall. I'm guessing that this was in Athearn's book on the D&RGW.
I do recall reading about additional tunnels being discussed when the Moffat tunnel was under construction. I distinctly recall that a tunnel under Cumbres was proposed and talk of another tunnel proposal that may have been Marshall. I'm guessing that this was in Athearn's book on the D&RGW.
In one of John Norwood's books he mentions there were proposals for tunnels for Moffat, Cumbres and Marshall passes. They were to be built using public bonds, but only the Moffat tunnel passed.
Jeff
Perhaps not known by many: The Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe Railroad Co. bought the Colorado Midland and operated it from about 1892 untill 1896 when Santa Fe had to reorganize. In the reorganization Santa Fe became The Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe Railway Company and sold the CM.
I think you need to go back and look at the politics and the railroad chess match that was going on in the first quarter of the 1900's in southern Colorado. The players were ATSF, DRGW, C&W/CF&I, CRIP (Coming in from Liberal, KS), CM (in desperation), C&S (bit player) , MP (bit player)and SP. D&RGW was busy protecting its franchise and was trying to cut-off or short haul SP (under the guise of the Arizona & Colorado/ Arizona & Colorado).... If SP got in, D&RG's narrow gage empire was in deep trouble. (D&RG dual gaged and standard gaged like mad between 1890 and 1905 as a matter of survival)
Tom Wigglesworth, from his base in Durango (which he platted originally and he was quite the boomer civil engineer*) came up with an elegant solution to get SP through southern Colorado, but it was still mountain railroading and it was gonna be damned ex$pen$ive. There was also something proposed, but never advanced, about extending the Dawson Railroad up from New Mexico. (lots of empty country with no railroads plus 'The enemy of your competitor is my friend" games in play.)
The financial strain of WW1 and the decrepit conditions of the worn-out rail lines largely killed-off any chance of the SP expansion into SW Colorado. By WW2, the idea was completely dead. The broken dreams and plans were filed away, Wigglesworth died, CM died and the whole circus (one less Transcon) was largely forgotten.
Would love to have seen the intentions what was being planned and how if the financial situation was different, what the railroad map might have looked like.
(*) there was an incredible collection of locating engineers and construction engineers around Colorado at that time.
Some websites with interesting info:
https://www.dangerousroads.org/north-america/usa/3800-marshall-pass.html - has a map of the Marshall Pass Road (30 miles) and some comments on it. There are also links to some photos and comments about road trips to and over the Pass.
The Wikipedia article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Pass - has 2 photos: one of a postcard from the "Highest Railroad P.O. in the World" there; and one by William Henry Jackson of a D&RG passenger train there circa 1890. It also says the ruling grade over the Pass was 4%.
And then here's a story about "The Phanton Train of Marshall Pass, Colorado", which is kind of amusing: https://www.legendsofamerica.com/co-marshallpass/ One of the few that mentions sectionmen ("four sexshun men" - kind of like Twitter and text message spellings these days!).
Mudchicken likely has more insights.
- PDN.
P.S. - Another article with some railroad history on the Pass in it: https://alamosanews.com/article/rabbitbrush-rambler-crossing-marshall-pass
Link to map and profile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Pass#/media/File:Marshall_Pass_Scheme.jpg
But I'm not finding anything about a tunnel at the Pass, or anywhere along that route?
So this would be in a very short window, between the Alpine Tunnel and the decision to have standard gauge over Tennessee Pass?
this rebuilding would taken place when this was narrow gauge and then the Rio Grande looked at standard gauging the line.There is a map some where of this rebuilting that i am looking for. Gary
I don't think he's talking about anything remotely contemporary. The Rio Grande itself as a separate entity has been gone since the Anspach years.
It is unlikely the Marshall Pass tunnel would be revived. It was built through unstable material, and in fact one end is physically closed by a landslide; I suspect there is considerable subsidence within the tunnel bore. These would be less critical for a modern TBM slipforming a concrete liner as it advances, and of course any existing liner would have to be removed to bring clearances to something meriting the time and attention...
I would also note, though, that approach grades were said to be considerable, probably with substantial and perhaps sharp curvature.
You may drive your car over the former D&RG Marshall Pass, I have, and its easy with wonderful views.
Moffat Tunnel was, of course, a different story as the Denver and Salt Lake was a standard gauge railroad and construction of the tunnel also served to establish a short-cut from Denver to the west, bypassing Tennessee Pass.
Yes, it is quite a short cut--175 miles shorter.
I've never seen anything about a proposed tunnel on Marshall Pass. In their book "Narrow Gauge in the Rockies", Beebe and Clegg mention that by 1889 NG had pretty much reached its peak. Standard gauge was the wave of the future as the Grande's route over Tennessee Pass was standard gauge, the Colorado Midland (a standard gauge line) was building and interchange between NG and standard gauge was a problem. Moreover, there would still be a significant grade over Cerro Summit between Cimarron and Montrose had the Marshall Pass grade been alleviated. Thoughts of a tunnel may well have occurred during the heyday of narrow gauge, however that time was brief and I doubt the economics were justifiable once the line soon ceased to become the transcontinental route with standard gauge over Tennessee Pass circa 1890.
MidlandMike Are you talking about before the line was abandoned? I can't imagine UP is thinking about rebuilding it.
Are you talking about before the line was abandoned? I can't imagine UP is thinking about rebuilding it.
The following is from Wikipedia: (usual disclaimers!) I was unfamiliar with it and went looking for Marshall Pass: [This is part of what was stated]:
"...When William Marshall first crossed the pass, he realized that it would be a good route for a road, and shortly after this, a company was organized to build a toll road.[2] The Marshall Pass Toll Road was completed in 1880, with stagecoach service from Gunnison to the Arkansas River where it connected with the Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad.[3] The new road at the pass summit was barely passable, and the grades on both sides of the pass were reported to be very steep.[4][5]
In 1881, the narrow gauge mainline of the Denver and Rio Grande Western Railroad was built across Marshall Pass on the way from Denver to Salt Lake City. This railroad line was completed before the Denver, South Park and Pacific Railroad completed the Alpine Tunnel, so it was the first crossing of the continental divide in Colorado by any railroad. The line reached Sargents, Colorado in August 1881.[6] By 1884, the line was complete from Ogden, Utah to Denver.[7]
The line saw the daily Shavano passenger train until closure. The line closed with the Gunnison Division in 1955, and the rails were removed the same year..]
Hope this helps, a little.
Twice the Rio Grande talked of rebuilding the Marshall pass line.Does anyone have a map of the new route of this line with a tunnel.Gary
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