Gas here held at 95.9 for a week. The last day or so, it's been 99 to 1.05. All in all, it takes me back to when I was a kid when there'd be gas wars. .20 a gallon era.
The history of Standard Oil is interesting. Particularly when you get past the fake news history.
https://fee.org/articles/john-d-rockefeller-and-the-oil-industry/
Paul_D_North_Jr Electroliner 1935 . . . So the drillers and the other parts of the industry might slow down but it will servive. . . . Someone pointed out elsewhere they could drill large-scale geothermal energy-producing wells instead. In view of the low demand for oil wells now, the price for that could be very competitive. - PDN.
Electroliner 1935 . . . So the drillers and the other parts of the industry might slow down but it will servive. . . .
Someone pointed out elsewhere they could drill large-scale geothermal energy-producing wells instead. In view of the low demand for oil wells now, the price for that could be very competitive.
- PDN.
The problem with that is that geothermal is competative with oil&gas, so the price they get per BTU would have to compete with those low prices. Poor ROI to drill at this time.
Oil drilling rigs are also used to drill salt/mineral wells, and disposal wells.
While the price of oil going below zero is a new one, I don't think a decade goes by where the oil industry doesn't go thru a boom and bust cycle. The recent dust up was between Russia and Saudi Arabia trying to undercut each other, which is never sustainable. The oil industry is very market driven, and things always sort themselves out. I don't recall the US oil industry ever getting a direct subsidy. They might get tax brakes, sales to the strat oil reserve, opening of federal leases, etc.
BaltACDI am starting to get under 1/4 of a tank. Last drove the truck on Tuesday to go to the neighborhood blood testing facility in preperation for my next Endocrinologist visit and stopped at a grocery store near the testing location.
Recently seen: "How many weeks per gallon are you getting?"
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Electroliner 1935 Miningman This is very interesting, goes to what Overmod is stating. This was before negative prices and the 'collapse'. Skip the first minute intro, not related. https://youtu.be/U51NH8Cyc_E What if the extractors in our country just produced enough to supply our countrys needs and left the rest in the ground for when it is needed. Perhaps the bankers and hedge funds would not have the big paydays but the wells would have oil for future generations. The Oil is finite. We don't need to use it as quickly as possible. So the drillers and the other parts of the industry might slow down but it will servive. When the gold mines were exhausted, they left ghost towns. When the coal mine is exhausted, the jobs go away. Slow down the rate and live longer. Filled up the car for $1.749/gal yesterday. I'm in no rush to waste it.
Miningman This is very interesting, goes to what Overmod is stating. This was before negative prices and the 'collapse'. Skip the first minute intro, not related. https://youtu.be/U51NH8Cyc_E
https://youtu.be/U51NH8Cyc_E
What if the extractors in our country just produced enough to supply our countrys needs and left the rest in the ground for when it is needed. Perhaps the bankers and hedge funds would not have the big paydays but the wells would have oil for future generations. The Oil is finite. We don't need to use it as quickly as possible. So the drillers and the other parts of the industry might slow down but it will servive. When the gold mines were exhausted, they left ghost towns. When the coal mine is exhausted, the jobs go away. Slow down the rate and live longer.
Filled up the car for $1.749/gal yesterday. I'm in no rush to waste it.
I am starting to get under 1/4 of a tank. Last drove the truck on Tuesday to go to the neighborhood blood testing facility in preperation for my next Endocrinologist visit and stopped at a grocery store near the testing location.
My 'prime' grocery store gives 10 cents off a gallon that is good through the month after the month the discount was earned - I'll have to get gas before the end of this month or lose 30 cents a gallon of discount that I earned in March.
Before Covid-19 the itinerary had been to haul the race car down to Danville, VA to race at VIR Easter weekend, haul from VIR to Topeka to race at Heartland Park and visit my son and his family and then return home to race at Summit Point this weekend. As can be seen from the paragraph above, I haven't even driven out a full tank of gas in over a month.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
MiningmanThis is very interesting, goes to what Overmod is stating. This was before negative prices and the 'collapse'. Skip the first minute intro, not related. https://youtu.be/U51NH8Cyc_E
This is very interesting, goes to what Overmod is stating. This was before negative prices and the 'collapse'. Skip the first minute intro, not related.
narig01 The idea is to buy the oil at the negative price, store it, then sell it when the price is at a profitable price.
The idea is to buy the oil at the negative price, store it, then sell it when the price is at a profitable price.
EuclidIt is my understanding that the oil glut has reduced its value to zero.
So we can proceed directly to your second point -- which I think is valid as stated, so no further need for posters to dispute 'the price of oil' question -- and ask what will be done to preserve jobs, knowledge, etc. for domestic firms and individuals concerned in the 'oil industry'. I'd be particularly interested in seeing what people actually involved with it, like Midland Mike, have to say, particularly including what strategies should be used either in 'stimulus' or in developing approaches to economic recovery.
It is my understanding that the oil glut has reduced its value to zero. So you either have to pay to store it or pay to dispose of it. Meanwhile this economic oil war is destroying our oil industry which cannot compete with free oil. So when this finally stablilizes we will again be at the mercy of foreign oil sources.
Just read an article in the 04/24/20 on line edition of the Wall Street Journal about the oil glut and storage issues related to it. Most of the oil is being stored in tank farms and on tankers. But, right in the middle of the article is a picture of rows and rows of tank cars in a Russian rail yard full of stored crude oil. So, is it going to solve the problem? No. Might there be some trainloads of stored crude out there in places besides Russia? Quite possibly.
CShaveRRWith the amount of tank cars needed to fill up a tanker or barge,you might be hard-pressed to find the number of cars needed. It may come as a surprise to some, but a lot of the DOT111A cars are being--and have been--rebuilt with insulation, thicker head shields, etc., to make them usable for crude transport.
And thus decreased their carrying capacity - weigh out before they cube out.
With the amount of tank cars needed to fill up a tanker or barge,you might be hard-pressed to find the number of cars needed. It may come as a surprise to some, but a lot of the DOT111A cars are being--and have been--rebuilt with insulation, thicker head shields, etc., to make them usable for crude transport.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
tree68 Two dollars a day per car adds up pretty quick - and that's the going rate for empty cars...
Two dollars a day per car adds up pretty quick - and that's the going rate for empty cars...
That's cheaper than what body shops charge for storage while waiting for the claims adjuster to look at the damage.
If you're going to store cars, there's usually a charge, by the car, by the day. Odds are the cars would get stored on otherwise unused shortline rails. I'm sure if they're loaded, they'll charge a premium price.
For oil pumped in the heartland such as from the Bakken or Uinta Basins that aren't connected to the pipeline system, and with storage capacity full, it probably won't get hauled to tidewater to be pumped in to a tanker. That is not to mention if there are tankers even available as other counties are also filling tankers as fast as they get them to port. The glut of oil is enormous as economies across the world grind down to depression levels.
Oil is not banned from DOT111 cars outright. Just certain sub categories. I still see oil in DOT111 cars all the time.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
narig01 The projections that Cushing, OK is going to not have enough room to store crude, may create an interesting situation. The idea is to store oil in railcars, like say plastic pellets get stored around Houston. Already oil traders are using old supertanker and oil barges to store unsold oil. My thought is, I think there is a supply of DOT 111 Tank Cars still out there that could be used to store oil, not move the oil just store it. With the changes in rules the DOT 111 cars became obsolete. 1. How many DOT 111 cars are still out there. 2. Would it be legal to store the oil in them 3. Where would you park all that oil?
The projections that Cushing, OK is going to not have enough room to store crude, may create an interesting situation.
The idea is to store oil in railcars, like say plastic pellets get stored around Houston. Already oil traders are using old supertanker and oil barges to store unsold oil.
My thought is, I think there is a supply of DOT 111 Tank Cars still out there that could be used to store oil, not move the oil just store it. With the changes in rules the DOT 111 cars became obsolete.
1. How many DOT 111 cars are still out there.
2. Would it be legal to store the oil in them
3. Where would you park all that oil?
No, and to be blunt it is a stupid question. If you gave it a little thought and used the computer you askerd it on, you would know that. A "supertanker" carries 2,000,000 barrels of oil. That will fill 2790 tank cars. They will need over 21 miles of track. That should tell you NO in very loud terms. We haven't gone into the cost of unloading, loading, switching, and moving them to this 21 miles of track that is not available. All this for a product that has a negative value. While it is on the ship at $.15 /bbl/day you can redirect it anywhere you might find a buyer. Why spend 10 times that to put it in a container that you can not ship it in? And if you could it would be limited to the North American rail system.
While the tank cars are on the railroad, they are under FRA regulations. If you remove the wheels and set the cars on blocks, they are now subject to various state oil and gas regulatory control (which might involve envoronmental containment and monitoring) and local fire marshall inspections. Old barges/tankers used for storage would need to meet Coast Guard regulations.
Any unused bowl tracks in mothballed hump yards that have not been scrapped yet?
This would involve more work, but you could buy some land in, say, the Mojave desert away from everything, build heavy duty fixed stands to connect with the truck bolsters, and then remove the cars from their trucks and place them on the stands. That way you could put them closely in rows and pipe them together for a quick tank farm.
Of course, you lose the benefits of mobility, but if they're not legal for oil service anyway, then it's an easier way to fit a lot of them into a space where they won't attract a lot of negative attention.
narig01The projections that Cushing, OK is going to not have enough room to store crude, may create an interesting situation. The idea is to store oil in railcars, like say plastic pellets get stored around Houston. Already oil traders are using old supertanker and oil barges to store unsold oil. My thought is, I think there is a supply of DOT 111 Tank Cars still out there that could be used to store oil, not move the oil just store it. With the changes in rules the DOT 111 cars became obsolete.
The great joy of this is that you COULD still move the cars around with the oil loaded -- just as a special move, and not very fast, in a fully-buffered unit train. (You could arrange to remove and re-use the buffer cars with a little care; keep them with whatever you use for power).
2. Would it be legal to store the oil in them?
If you have the money, put or spray a 'liner' in the tank cars so that even 'usual' rust won't go through the shell and start seepage.
I'd ask a couple more questions:
4. Would it be better to do some pre-refining on crude before storing it away?
5. How do you propose to access the crude once it turns out to be needed or wanted again? Might need some special portable equipment or fixtures on the cars to facilitate that...
Note: What I'm tempted to tell you to do is remove some of the brake rigging so the trucks can cross-swivel. Then build some track up mountainsides far, far away from people and use 'nighttime' or surplus renewable-sourced power to run them uphill and swing them horizontal to grade. Then harvest the gravitational power at peak times. As I recall, there was a proposal to do just this with essentially cement slugs on rail chassis -- now you have the equivalent of cobblestone ballast in ships going to places that need streets paved!
I guess I've lost track. Has the federal government topped of the oil in the strategic reserve yet?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I suspect that storing loaded cars would generate pushback from the local community, unless they're in the middle of nowhere. And there is security to consider...
They would not be able to be stored at the dock where they were loaded so they would have to be transported to wherever they would be stored.
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